A discussion on immunity

[Paul B]

This thread is one of the best out there and it's great to hear civil discourse on both nutrition/immunity and QT.

I don't now about that. Right after every post that I don't agree with, I shoot holes in the posters avitar. Then I have to go to Best Buy and get another computer.

There is definitely such a thing as vitamin A hypervitaminosis in fish.

There may be and I am sure some researcher came up with that. But almost every meal fish eat another fish. Fish are full of oil and that oil is vitamin A. I think about 12% of a wild fishes food is vitamin A.
As I said, for years I injected it into prey fish to feed my carnivores. If they got hypervitaminosis they didn't tell me about it.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Of course some researcher "came up with that" and it's why I can say so with such a definitive voice. There's no question about it despite what your fish did or didn't whisper to you.

 

[Paul B]

The researcher may be correct. I don't know him, but I know my fish and although they didn't whisper to me, they texted me.
Have a Great Christmas.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Paul, it's not a single researcher. If it will add to the conversation I can provide some information and their references as they are really straight forward and not at all hypothesized at this point.

 

[Paul B]

Lionfish, I didn't say I don't believe you. I am sure researchers found that out. I am just saying that, and also researchers wrote this, a fish has a very large liver and it is mostly oil. Fish eat mostly fish along with that large liver filled with oil. I would assume that if fish ate more oil than they would normally get after a day of eating other fish, it may become toxic. But they do eat a lot of oil.

 

[laga77]

In contrast to the water soluble vitamins, fish and shrimp accumulate fat soluble vitamins under conditions where dietary intake exceeds metabolic demand. Under certain circumstances accumulation is such that a toxic condition (hypervitaminosis) may be produced. Although such a condition is unlikely to occur under practical farming conditions, hypervitaminosis has been experimentally induced in fish. Toxicity signs which have been reported include:

VITAMIN A
Salmonids Reduced growth and haematocrit, severe necrosis/erosion of anal, caudal, pelvic and pectoral fins, scoliosis, lordosis, increased mortality, pale yellow livers (1, 2)
VITAMIN D
Salmonids Reduced growth, lethargy, dark colouration (3)
Channel catfish Reduced growth, poor feed efficiency (4)
VITAMIN E
General Reduced growth, toxic liver reaction, mortality (3)


It does exist but rare, but farming techniques and home aquariums can be very similar. Especially when someone just dumps the same food in the tank over a long period of time. found from a simple google search.

 

[Paul B]

I can see that happening in farmed fish. Fish in the ocean were designed to eat just the right amount of oil so I doubt they would have a problem overdosing on vitamin A. Farmed salmon are fed large amounts of fish oil. I personally eat fish a few times a week but would never eat farmed fish. They don't even taste the same.
I try to feed my fish an approximation of what they eat in the sea and I think I am succeeding because as I said, they are all spawning. If they were all burping, puking or passing gas, I would think I was feeding the wrong diet or they got a hold of some bad clams. If your fish are first of all, not dying and if they are spawning, whatever you are doing, keep doing it. Spawning fish are the healthiest they can be. Of course as I keep saying non spawning (paired) fish are not very healthy and I don't care how high their blood pressure is or what their doctor or researcher says.
I realize researchers come up with all sorts of valuable things that they write about. But I would like to say this. Over many years I have written many articles and submitted them to magazines. Virtually every one was published as fact. I could be going to a fortune teller in Tibet, who has a side business based in a goat farm making cheese and using it for deodorant or bait for Yeti' traps, and getting my information from her, Having it translated from Tibetan to Cantonese, then to English by a senile Rabbi then sending it in to magazines as fact.
No one checks and no one has ever asked me for my credentials, passport or a urine sample. Don't believe everything you read.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Paul, it's not a single researcher. If it will add to the conversation I can provide some information and their references as they are really straight forward and not at all hypothesized at this point.

Lionfish, I didn't say I don't believe you.

What!! I wasn't particularly caring whether or not you "believe me", but was politely offering to summarize some studies that I have access to, that maybe others do not, to further support the conversation at hand.

Sheesh!

 

[Paul B]

Sheesh! OK let me see the researchers studies. I realize all this is getting way off the subject but I guess it would be interesting. Sheesh again. OK forget that last Sheesh

 

[Joey waid]

Sheesh, I want to see it too!!

 

[Paul B]

Sheesh, I read the links Laga77 provided and those are for farmed fish. Aquarium fish could kind of be similar to farmed fish but we rarely supplement our fishes diet with Vitamin A. I sometimes do, but I doubt anyone else does. Now we will see what the researchers Lionfish Lair came up with.
I am not quite sure what this has to do with immunity but this thread, like a lot of my threads is all over the place.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Lionfish, I didn't say I don't believe you. I am sure researchers found that out. I am just saying that, and also researchers wrote this, a fish has a very large liver and it is mostly oil. Fish eat mostly fish along with that large liver filled with oil. I would assume that if fish ate more oil than they would normally get after a day of eating other fish, it may become toxic. But they do eat a lot of oil.

Your techniques and records are a form of research. You are essentially acting as a researcher. The pros in this case is it's length. The negatives are that is it is extremely narrow in it's scope, you are not utilizing any form of a control, and even though utilizing a log book, is not particularly detailed regarding how your hypotheses are implemented.

You utilize ozone(which has a pretty big impact on on parasite population), reverse undergravel filtration, whole fresh foods for diet, add seawater, mud, relatively low stocking.

The reason proper researchers use controls and try to replicate experiments over multiple subjects is to determine whether their hypotheses have any merit. And even though you often will add that we will 'have to ask the fish' or 'ask the parasites' the reality is that we can't, so getting actual data as to what or why we or doing does or doesn't work is necessary. Often enough reseachers present a hypothesis that seems to be supported by evidence, but on closer examination is a corollary, and not causative.

You will also often state that your tank is proof. No, your tank is evidence of your hypothesis. Proof would be able to replicated consistently. Unfortunately, most that try to replicate your processes still run into immunological deficiencies in their fish.

 

[bios]

Paul you have to admit that Eat say true

 

[bios]

Anyway the oil in their large leaver is to mantain their thermoregulation
As they freeze without it

 

[Brew12]

Paul you have to admit that Eat say true

Eat is most definitely correct.
That doesn't mean that what Paul is doing isn't important or that his experiences aren't worth sharing. Many scientific discoveries and proof are the result of observations and research that starts in a similar manner.

 

[sundog101]

Everyone says that Paul is lucky. I don't think so. "Lucky" to me means a tank that is stocked with fish that are not quarantined and do not have ich. You are "unlucky" when you add that one fish that does have ich and it spreads the other fish. Paul's tank does have ich and no fish are sick. That's not "lucky"... something is working. Maybe everything doesn't exactly follow the scientific method, but it works. Quarantining also works if done right.
On a side note does anybody know how public aquariums deal with ich/velvet? Is every single fish, coral, and invert quarantined? I've seen some giant tanks and I don't know how you would make sure everything is parasite free.

 

[Paul B]

Of course eatbreakfast is correct. I am not a researcher and don't claim to be. Researchers do that for a living and someone pays them to study this stuff. I am just a hobbiest. But I am quite sure I have been keeping fish a lot longer than a researcher has been studying them under laboratory conditions. I am not saying to use my methods. Use whatever methods you like. I am just saying my method can and does work. Maybe it only works for me, I don't know but I think that would be silly. If you think quarantining is the way to go, do that. I am not the God of fish.
This was just a discussion to talk about a different way. If it offends anyone, I am sorry.
Now I am going to open my Christmas and Birthday presents.
Have a Merry Christmas.

 

[bios]

Merry Christmas to you and everyone.. :-D

 

[justingraham]

Happy b day Paul

 

[Paul B]

Thanks guys. Happy New Year.