A discussion on immunity
- Thread starter Paul B
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or most of the other published experts.
mcarroll
10K Club member
First: Merry Christmas!!
Second: Weird, I stopped getting Alerts on this thread some time after my last post even though I'm still signed up for it. Is that something that happens?
And now...
I don't know that long-term was specified. I know I was concerned with an uncompromised fish being compromised and then added to a QT with other fish that are diseased. If that happens, then you've just made a sick fish.
Copper and cramped living quarters both seem to be pretty well known for reducing immune function (most stresses would, I'd think), but lemme see if I can find the reference.
Not making an argument, just telling my experience with the threads in the Fish and Disease forums.
Very interesting thought.
It was the opposite thought back in the day, that a UGF would be refuge. That the flow is reverse seems like it would have little effect on this since the flow is so low. The main point is really not to draw detritus down into the gravel, not so much to blow things out of the gravel.
Still interesting....and I know parasites can be tiny, so maybe folks were wrong back in the day!
That was an extreme study where that's all they were fed. Unrealistic in our scenario, but interesting so that nobody makes the mistake of feeding nothing but terrestrial foods. (Not possible if you feed any kind of commercially available hobby diet.) Supplementing your fish with blanched veggies isn't going to hurt them.
@Brew12 had the best-sounding article on this I've seen (a quote from....still need to read). I had no idea imunity and spawning were that deeply linked. Pretty wild stuff!!
See, it's not so hard to deduce the components of his success. (I really fail to see the source of all the resistance there's been.)
You implement the ones you are able to, compensate for the ones you can't, then remember that nobody follows the "go slow" rule but if they did that would also eliminate a range of stresses.
I've been throwing out the idea of newbies taking 1-2 years with their first few fish before stocking up the tank further.
Paul suggested something about 5 years to a tank's maturity earlier...so why not build your fish population – slowly at first over that five year period?
There, in a tiny nutshell, is your newbie guide you asked about a while back @Humblefish.
@Paul B This reminds me of Luther Burbank's story.
No offense to the real researchers in the crowd, but my understanding is that the science community didn't appreciate Mr. Burbank, at least back in his day.
It's no criticism, but "real reaserch" is a closed community for our purposes. We can see into their library – a little bit.
As long as that's true AND there are smart people outside the community, there will be Luther Burbanks.
JEN Veron had a nice word on this in the Foreword to Borneman's "Aquarium Corals" book.
Second: Weird, I stopped getting Alerts on this thread some time after my last post even though I'm still signed up for it. Is that something that happens?
And now...
I don't know that long-term was specified. I know I was concerned with an uncompromised fish being compromised and then added to a QT with other fish that are diseased. If that happens, then you've just made a sick fish.
Copper and cramped living quarters both seem to be pretty well known for reducing immune function (most stresses would, I'd think), but lemme see if I can find the reference.
Not making an argument, just telling my experience with the threads in the Fish and Disease forums.
Very interesting thought.
It was the opposite thought back in the day, that a UGF would be refuge. That the flow is reverse seems like it would have little effect on this since the flow is so low. The main point is really not to draw detritus down into the gravel, not so much to blow things out of the gravel.
Still interesting....and I know parasites can be tiny, so maybe folks were wrong back in the day!
That was an extreme study where that's all they were fed. Unrealistic in our scenario, but interesting so that nobody makes the mistake of feeding nothing but terrestrial foods. (Not possible if you feed any kind of commercially available hobby diet.) Supplementing your fish with blanched veggies isn't going to hurt them.
@Brew12 had the best-sounding article on this I've seen (a quote from....still need to read). I had no idea imunity and spawning were that deeply linked. Pretty wild stuff!!
See, it's not so hard to deduce the components of his success. (I really fail to see the source of all the resistance there's been.)
You implement the ones you are able to, compensate for the ones you can't, then remember that nobody follows the "go slow" rule but if they did that would also eliminate a range of stresses.
I've been throwing out the idea of newbies taking 1-2 years with their first few fish before stocking up the tank further.
Paul suggested something about 5 years to a tank's maturity earlier...so why not build your fish population – slowly at first over that five year period?
There, in a tiny nutshell, is your newbie guide you asked about a while back @Humblefish.
@Paul B This reminds me of Luther Burbank's story.
No offense to the real researchers in the crowd, but my understanding is that the science community didn't appreciate Mr. Burbank, at least back in his day.
It's no criticism, but "real reaserch" is a closed community for our purposes. We can see into their library – a little bit.
As long as that's true AND there are smart people outside the community, there will be Luther Burbanks.
JEN Veron had a nice word on this in the Foreword to Borneman's "Aquarium Corals" book.
mcarroll
10K Club member
@Brew12 I tried running a few searches on here and couldn't find teh thing on copper and immunity either, though I did find a few posts were I made reference to it, so maybe it's something I just read and didn't link.....have a pile of stuff on my computer I can look through still, but in the mean time try this:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145305X01000404
(Full PDF is on Research Gate)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145305X01000404
(Full PDF is on Research Gate)
mcarroll
10K Club member
It's not in my local pile either, so it musta been some other random thread....
As a bonus, I found one I'd forgotten about in my local pile:
Check out Viruses manipulate the marine environment.
As a bonus, I found one I'd forgotten about in my local pile:
Check out Viruses manipulate the marine environment.
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Paul B
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It happens to all of us when we get to our age. You probably get alerts and forget about them because you had to go to the bathroom.
As for low stocking levels, I think my tank is packed now as it normally is. A little to packed for my liking. I buy all small fish and since they don't die, they get big. I got my copperband tiny and now he is about 4 or 5" as all my wrasses and bangai cardinals. My tank is 90 gallons I think. I never measured it and it was sold as a 100 gallon tank, but I think it is only 90 gallons. It is also full of rocks so there is probably only 65 gallons of water in it. (Yes I am guessing here) there are about 20 fish or a little more and every one is full grown size. My nitrate is way off the chart somewhere around 125 or more. The corals are fine as are the fish so although low stocking levels would be better, that is not the case in my tank.
Because of my nitrates, I am sure my water parameters would not be considered pristine so I am not sure how much parameters adds to the equation. For most of the life of the tank, the nitrates were closer to 20. As was said the RUGF goes in reverse so I doubt parasites are stupid enough to get stuck in it.
I think it is just immunity from the food brought on in part fro the bacteria in the food and the fact they were all and are always exposed to parasites in the tank and in their food.
And like I said, immunity, great health and spawning all go hand in hand.
It was said that researchers can't duplicate this. Did any researchers try?
The research is done on food fish that because of profit must be raised in tight quarters with food that doesn't cost too much. Raising salmon using blackworms on a farm would not be profitable because pound for pound, blackworms are worth much more than salmon.
Salmon and most fish are raised on dry pellets because they are cheap and easy to store and dispense. and as I mentioned, I have a big problem using dry anything.
Just get your fish into spawning mode through the proper foods like worms, clams. Something with live bacteria in it. In a few weeks that should get them spawning. Then if you want, you can try to get them some immunity by exposing them to some type of pathogen.
(yes I know I am very mean) OK I won't call it "exposing" your fish, call it inoculating them as that sounds better. But if you have a tank full of quarantined fish, you may need some copper and a hospital tank around.
It is much easier to just buy fish which are already immune and keep them that way.
Just my opinion of course.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I've hardly gotten any alerts for most of the threads I follow the last 2 days.
melypr1985
totally addicted
Yeah, if you don't check the alert or miss the alert for it, then you might stop getting notifications to it. Once you check the thread, the alerts will begin again. OR if you have more alerts than the little drop down menu will show you and this thread is not in there, then you might not see it which would, again, lead you to missing the alert and not receiving them until you check the thread itself.
does that make sense? It does in my head, but that can be a very strange place
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Paul B
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Rock Pool Reef Keepers
I forgot that this thread even exists?!
I bet you and Meredith wished I didn't exist.
I bet you and Meredith wished I didn't exist.
Oh Paul, don't be that way. You & I are like an old married couple. We disagree on everything but at the end of the day we still love one another. (But in a manly way.)
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Hmm... you guys disagree on everything, huh? I wonder who wrote this in your thread on Ich Management...
"A fine example of utilizing proper nutrition to keep the bugs away is Paul Baldassano’s (aka Paul B) over 40 year old, 100 gallon aquarium. Paul keeps his fish in “breeding condition” by feeding live foods (ex. blackworms) and soaking food in Omega-3 fish oil. Most of his livestock live to be a ripe old age and some of his fish spawn on a regular basis. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul and highly recommend this article written by him: Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano?s Reef - 40 Years in the Making."
dun dun duuuunnnnn!!!!!!!
mcarroll
10K Club member
I can add this...
While I don't know a bunch of people in your boat with these numbers, my buddy does have a small number of tanks that are like this and they also seem to stay "balanced".
The only common denominator I can see from The Command Chair is very, very consistent feeding.
You have your auto-feeders and routine, he only visits the tanks every so often so he's got an auto-feeder with eithet pellets or flakes.
I've been considering this for a while and I'm pretty sure this really is one of the keys.....auto feeders.
Would be nice to have more/better refrigerated and live-food feeder options, though there are already some out there!
But even if you can only gain consistency through flakes or pellets in a feeder (Eheim's new ones are supposed to be the bomb), I think it would be a worthy experiment for someone with fish but who doesn't already do this.
Obviously a goal would be to make quality live/frozen foods the main staple and the proportion of dry food should remain small and measured, but consistent.
So, I think given the right circumstance, the absolute numbers don't have to mean much.
melypr1985
totally addicted
I bet you and Meredith wished I didn't exist.
Not true at all!
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Paul B
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Rock Pool Reef Keepers
Yes Humble agrees with me on how you should feed fish. Then when we get into quarantining, we are at different ends of the spectrum, but both our systems work. We do both agree that we are both excellent looking Man specimins. Not that we look at each other or anything as that would be icky and not very Manly.
I have a lot of respect for Merideth also. She is really into this fish thing and gets deeper into it every day.
And she always has time to give advice.I used to be like that, now I am tying to forget a lot to make room in my brain for other things. Maybe I will take up the harp or take steroids so I can grow muscles.
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