Algae Scrubber Vs Refugium -- Do you have a Nitrates issue?

zemuss

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I am a member of another forum which if you mention a Algae scrubber they will tell you it doesn't work and "oh another one of you here" type messages. Everyone there love the idea of creating another tank with a purpose of keeping salt water plants. I am sure many here know that plants need nutrients, so I wanted to discuss the pros and cons of both setups before starting another tank for plants only.

Discuss why a refugium might be a better fit then a Algae Scrubber?


NOTE: First post will be updated in the future with a table of contents and major points to consider. Keep it coming with the ideas.
 
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revhtree

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Following along!
 
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zemuss

zemuss

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The purpose is to discuss what works well and what doesn't work.

Experiences in both are welcomed and this shouldn't be a chest pounding activity either.
 

Saulsa

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I have been using a scrubber for a very limited amount of time but I will say my nitrates have plummeted since spotting the initial algae growth. I have never used a refugium because I feel to get macro algae to really make a difference requires a lot more space than typical reefers give.
 

shovelrider

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Nutrient export is why both are used in this hobby. Both are proven to work, if you keep up with proper maintenance. Depends on what you would like, fuges are nicer to look at IMHO. A reef system can run at very low nutrient levels without either option but most of us dont want to put in that level of effort so we opt for fuges or scrubbers so we can be a tad bit lazier.

The main idea behind both of these options is that the nutrients, if you have them, are used up by the scrubber or fuge and not in the display tank. Exported by removing the Macro Algae that consumes it by either scraping it off the scrubber or by removing some macro out of the fuge, and do it again and again as it grows back.

The main difference between the two systems is that the down-flow scrubber makes noise by trickling water down the scrubber sheet, an up-flow scrubber uses bubbles flowing up a submerged scrubber sheet which could cause salt creep at the surface, and the fuge is relatively quiet and easy maintenance by just removing the macro every so often.
 
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zemuss

zemuss

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Shovelrider but as Saulsa mentioned what size fuge do we need? Do you think a 5 gallon fuge on a 40 gallon system is going to impact nutrient export?

Saulsa what size scrubber do you have? What lights are you running and for how long?
 

mykidsclownfish

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i am interested in this too. i just set up a sump on my system a few weeks ago with some cheato in it. I didnt realize that folks removed the algae from time to time. how often are folks doing this? i have a 10 g sump with a 20g dt, but will be stitching my stock over to a 46 within a few months.
 
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zemuss

zemuss

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What algaes do people use in the Fuge? Cheato, caulerpa? Lets grow a list of Macro Algae and other plant life that are on peoples "best nutrient" export list. I mention Cheato and Caulerpa because they are fast growers.

However, I know Caulerpa is evasive, but if you grow it in a sump will it stay in the sump or will it progress into the display? I think the disadvantage to Marco Algae is the potential of them becoming asexual and most run their lights 24 /7. Is this light schedule needed? Reason I ask is with a scrubber there is a lights out period which is normally when the lights on the Display tank are on. The lights out period give the algae time to release O2 back into the tank and the benefits of this is a more stable Ph.
Does a fuge need the same lights out period like Scrubbers need?
 
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zemuss

zemuss

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Cheato from my experience which is very little will grow to a size and slow down as it uses up nutrients. However, to encourage more growth you need to trim it up. Say if it doubles in size cut it back to half the doubled size.
 

jedimasterben

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The main difference between the two systems is that the down-flow scrubber makes noise by trickling water down the scrubber sheet, an up-flow scrubber uses bubbles flowing up a submerged scrubber sheet which could cause salt creep at the surface, and the fuge is relatively quiet and easy maintenance by just removing the macro every so often.
The noise from even a waterfall-style scrubber is negligible unless you have it suspended a foot above the water (and not with the end in the water like the design) or have it out in the open near the tank.

The main difference is really that algae scrubbers, when well lit, are vastly superior at nutrient removal than any sized refugium I have ever seen or used. My last refugium was in a 40 breeder, sectioned off having around 28 gallons or so of space. At one point it was filled to the brim with chaeto lit with a 660nm/450nm LED grow light giving around 300-500 PAR to it. I'd trim it every other week, leaving around a softball or so, and over two weeks it would nearly fill the entire chamber.

When I started use of a waterfall algae scrubber, lit on one side by a small DIY LED array (can easily use a PAR38 grow light) and the other by a 32w warm white CFL, the chaeto almost immediately died out, and it allowed me to increase my feeding by several times without any worry of nutrient buildup. You just don't see that happen with a refugium, and I'd imagine it would need to be larger than the display tank it was connected to to have the same nutrient export capabilities. Hair algae is just that efficient.
 

Mrfresh

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I'm not against ATS I've just never have luck with them.

I believe that most fuges on reef tanks are under sized
I have a 90 gallon with about a 20 gallon fug and I know it helps but I would love to have a 60 gallon fuge on it..
My fuge is packed with algae in it to there it makes it self stick out of the water...
I know it works bc when I do cut it back I will have a break out of red slime the next day, even tho I do two water changes a week.
After the algae starts to grow and fill back in all the slime is gone.


Lighting,
I run my fug lights as the same time I have my display tank lights on. As far as ph I always have a fan on my tank and it sits pretty normal all thought out the day and night.
 
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zemuss

zemuss

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Jedi. Whats up man!

How do you seed your screen? Or do you let it seed its self.

"Z'
 

SeymourDuncan

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I use a slightly different version of the scrubber. Instead I algae I scrub cyanobacteria! This may be the best idea I've ever had. It sucks out all the slime from my DT and stays confined in a 20g that leads to my sump.
I have a skimmer and some chaeto but the chaeto won't grow to save my life because by the time water makes it down there its already clean. If it wasnt so salty I would hook up a drinking fountain to it :)

Mainly I use the chaeto as a pod catcher to feed my DT I guess. Either way I like having multiple environments. It really makes for some interesting conversation:
"Yeah so I was in my basement watching the bristleworms swimming through the water when a copepod decided to jump on his back for a ride over to the return pump to commit suicide"

I don't even need to turn the lights off anymore, they are hypo populating haha
 

jedimasterben

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Jedi. Whats up man!

How do you seed your screen? Or do you let it seed its self.

"Z'

Hey man!

I just let mine ride for a bit. First, diatoms cover the screen, after a week, use a soft toothbrush on it to get them off, then after that, hair algae should start to take hold.

Some people use actual turf algae, but that's getting into dangerous territory if a tiny piece of it gets back up to the display!
 

jedimasterben

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Mainly I use the chaeto as a pod catcher to feed my DT I guess.

This is another point I forgot about the algae scrubbers - when my scrubber took off in growth, copepod populations just exploded like I've never seen before, despite having run that large refugium for several months AND having seeded it with fresh, pod-COVERED macro from the ocean.
 

DaveMorris

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I am getting ready to start a new build centered around a 48"x24"x26" Leemar tank. I am currently running a 300g display tank with a 60g refugium and I have always had real good luck running a refugium. On the new 120g I am considering running an ATS because of the question poised here of how big is big enough for a refugium. I will not have enough room under the new tank to set up a big refugium, so an ATS seems like the best bet. I just have to figure out the best way to set it up. My only complaint that I have about ATS' is they seem to be somewhat messy. The lights being on tend to promote algea growth in sections of the sump that shouldn't have it. So, I will be trying to figure out a way to isolate it from the rest of my sump.
 
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zemuss

zemuss

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Jedi and others I would like to see your algae scrubbers. I am looking for ideas to enhance my build. I also might add another light to the other side of the scrubber, and currently only run one light.
 
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zemuss

zemuss

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For now the ATS will be located in my sump. Future plans it to make a rubber made U shape scrubber and place it above the sump. THe water gets pumped to the scrubber fills the rubber maid then flows back to the sump through a 1 inch pipe / bulk head. I will add another pipe an inch higher for redundancy.
 

jedimasterben

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Jedi and others I would like to see your algae scrubbers. I am looking for ideas to enhance my build. I also might add another light to the other side of the scrubber, and currently only run one light.
Running both sides will double its efficiency. What lighting are you using?

Here are pics of mine:

LED side is on the right, see how puffy it is? A 4:1 ratio of 660nm to 450nm gets that puffiness.

2012_12_31__16_52_03_zpsb2f5fe28.jpg


Two weeks' algae growth. That was around 18 'cubes' of food in that time, no detectable nitrate or phosphate.
2012_12_31__17_06_36_zps32ba65d4.jpg



Another shot of teh LED side.
2012_12_31__16_51_55_zpsf1ec120e.jpg


This is the CFL side, note not as green (most of the green is actually a film algae on the clear plastic cover).
2012_12_31__16_51_35_zpsa0dd16d5.jpg


Compared to the ridiculous grow light that was over the refugium.
20121223-IMG_0227.jpg


These LEDs were not even the 'optimal' ratio, just whatever I had left over - 4x 660nm, 4x 450nm, 4x 420nm, 2x 5000K white
2012_11_23__23_55_38.jpg
 
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