Alk precipitation....anyone else been through this?

mcarroll

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So, I managed to get almost 5 years into my SPS tank before finally having an issue with precipitation. That's not so noteworhthy, but the fact that I can't seem to get it to stop has got me stumped.

What happened - in a nutshell - was that I was trying out a pair of dosing pumps, got too confident and too busy at the same time and stopped testing. As it turned out, there was a problem with the dosers and when I started paying attention again Alk was at almost 2.0 meq/L, Ca around 300 ppm and Mg around 1100 ppm.

In making the correction to the Ca/Alk/Mg chemistry I obviously overdid one or all of them as about 30 minutes or so after dosing, the whole tank turned milky white. This was more than a little surprising....I've never read of a delayed reaction like that. I typically gauge my dosing speed by whether I see a little cloud of precipitation where the alk drips are hitting the water (or not) and how fast the little cloud dissipates...a little cloud that dissipates within a second or so has never been an issue and I never exceeded that standard this go-around.

Anyway, once the cloudiness subsided I cleaned all my pumps with a soak in vinegar and scraped down the light layer of precipitation that had formed on the sump walls and tank walls.

Here's the really weird part (for me anyway): Even after some water changes (4 x 10%), dosing Mg and Ca back up to spec (1350, 400) I can't get Alk to stay anywhere above 3.0 and I'm still scraping the precipitate off the sides of my sump at the water line every single day. (Ca isn't going below 370 and Mg is staying at 1350.)

Basically every round of dosing I do now - no matter how dilute, how slowly dripped, or how much I crank up the flow in the dosing area of the sump (currently Korallia 2 using the flow concentrator and pointed up at the surface right where the Alk drips - results in the sump glass being cloudy with precipitate. Pumps in the sump are still getting chalky residue and are needing weekly (instead of yearly or so) vinegar soaks. FWIW, flow-through in the sump is about 500-600 gph (which is more than it's ever been....plus I recently added the Korallia to keep the surface agitated).

What the heck is going on? Is there just so much chalk in the tank due to said precipitation event that now there's so much "seed" surface it just doesn't stay in the water?

Does this mean I have to break down the tank? Would switching to baking soda possibly help?

Thanks for any advice....this is very disturbing. Going on two weeks of this now. (I can't keep going in this shape...vinegar and two-part are gonna get expensive fast!)

-Matt
 
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mcarroll

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Already hitting the water changes....in your experience what percent volume of changes and at what frequency should I be doing for something like this? (Larger than 15% would be difficult, but do-able.)

-Matt
 
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mcarroll

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Well, I turned on two peristaltic dosing pumps over the weekend and upped dose frequency and reduced dose quantity and for the first time since the incident I don't have any glass to scrape in the sump even after a few days dosing.

Dunno how much to attribute to the dosers and regime since I was also doing extra water changes, but I'm happy things seem to be improving nonetheless and plan to continue doing as many water changes as I practically can.

-Matt
 
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mcarroll

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I refreshed myself a little with the linked section of this article:
What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

It confirms that switching to baking soda would have been likely to help with the precipitation, as it's got a lower pH.

Might have to try more of those recommendations to prevent/curb precipitation. Anyone taken (any of) these steps before who could offer advice?

Thanks again!

-Matt
 

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Going to follow this thread. Would like to know what is going to help correct the problem. I ran into a guy in the LFS and he was frustrated about his 210. He can not keep his calcium up at all. Does 25% w/c once a week now I believe. Has a calcium reactor thats keeping his Alk at 11 and mag at 1500. But calcium is 300-330. Told him to get calcium chloride to help boost it. But he says it dont work so well see. Maybe he has precipitation as well, if there is a relation with your Alk problem may help me give this guy more advise.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
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mcarroll

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Switching to Recipe 2 (pH-lowering and about 50% concentration), scraping and/or vinegar soaking the entire tank+equipment and lots of water changes are what stabilized the water.

-Matt
 

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Matt, I just saw this thread surface from your post today. You may have over-buffered your system and raised the pH causing the continued precipitation after the primary event. Did you test your pH back in February when the sump continued to get cloudy and have to scrape the sump glass?
 

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Switching to Recipe 2 (pH-lowering and about 50% concentration), scraping and/or vinegar soaking the entire tank+equipment and lots of water changes are what stabilized the water.

-Matt

Glad you got it worked out. I had a tough time when I started out dosing. Seems like when I test constantly I don't need to make any changes but as soon as I slack off everything gets out of whack.
 
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Matt, I just saw this thread surface from your post today. You may have over-buffered your system and raised the pH causing the continued precipitation after the primary event. Did you test your pH back in February when the sump continued to get cloudy and have to scrape the sump glass?

I don't recall seeing anything out of the ordinary on pH, but I don't specifically remember if I looked at that time. (I rarely look at pH.)

Looking though my logs, the only number I recorded for pH was on March 31 at 0700EST, before lights-on -- recorded a 7.8 or so. (Ever-so-slightly lower than usual.)

FWIW, I use a Salifert pH kit so it's always a color-guess what the pH really is. Usually the color is "somewhere around 8" and is identical every time I test so I don't record it - so it's very possible that I tested pH in February and got a "normal" reading. Day or night, under normal circumstances, it never varies. (Someday I'll pony up for a pH meter - maybe even an SL1 or SL2 for my ReefKeeper.)

Thanks!

-Matt
 

Grant W

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Matt, as I told you in my pm, I had the same issues when I switched over but caught it before oversat took place because I was monitoring my Ph on the reefkeeper and switched to recipe #2 before it got too out of hand. I got "lucky" and kept my losses to a min. Hows your tank doing now? Grant
 
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Going to follow this thread. Would like to know what is going to help correct the problem. I ran into a guy in the LFS and he was frustrated about his 210. He can not keep his calcium up at all. Does 25% w/c once a week now I believe. Has a calcium reactor thats keeping his Alk at 11 and mag at 1500. But calcium is 300-330. Told him to get calcium chloride to help boost it. But he says it dont work so well see. Maybe he has precipitation as well, if there is a relation with your Alk problem may help me give this guy more advise.

I don't think low Cal would be one of the side-effects of precipitation without having lower alkalinity as well - there just aren't enough carbonates in the water vs calcium to roll things that way. Good question as to what the cause would be though - any idea if he figured it out?

Matt, as I told you in my pm, I had the same issues when I switched over but caught it before oversat took place because I was monitoring my Ph on the reefkeeper and switched to recipe #2 before it got too out of hand. I got "lucky" and kept my losses to a min. Hows your tank doing now? Grant

Ya, thankfully it was mostly just a lot of bother for me in my case - even the ORA birdsnest that was _TN'ing has started healing. The worst lasting effect is on the color of my Montipora cap's....still a lot of brown in the skin tissue. There've been some other changes along the way since the crash - switching to LED's, still dialing in my dosing system, etc - which might have hindered the healing process a little, but I'm expecting full recovery for the corals to take a good long time anyway. It's likely they will be fragged out before that happens - either because of a tank move/upgrade or just because it needs to be done+now they look kinda grungy. I'm just glad I'll at least have frags of everything to take forward. :)

Also, I mentioned earlier that I was considering a pH monitor of some sort - between you and BeakerBob I'm considering it even more. Maybe you can help in the consideration. :) I have to decide between SL1 (where I may never monitor ORP) or SL2 (where I may never have a Salinity probe) if I wanna tie into the ReefKeeper and use my last bus slot, or to just get a hand-held or Pinpoint style monitor. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

-Matt
 

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Switching to Recipe 2 (pH-lowering and about 50% concentration), scraping and/or vinegar soaking the entire tank+equipment and lots of water changes are what stabilized the water.

-Matt

I am having the same problem. same thing kicked it off. too much alk that caused alot of percipertation, now I can't get the alk to take. it just keeps percipertating onto the equiipment. mag is 1360, cal is 430. but alk can't get it above 9.6 and that's with 135ml of soda ash a day. there is no load on the tank since it is brand new. no corals or inverts.

anyway the reason i;'m posting is "what is recipe 2???? I did a couple of water changes, and did the scraping and vinegar with the tank and equipment but even when I switch to bi carbonate it still won't go higher than in thje 9's. and that's with either 135 ml of soda ash or 280 ml of bi carbonate
 
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mcarroll

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Recipe 2 is just sodium bicarbonate.

You've got a lot of water changes ahead of you if your tank goes like mine went. Don't sweat keeping any higher alk...maybe even settle at 8 until everthing stabilizes.

Good luck!

-Matt
 

Joey Vagneur

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Matt,

I am dealing with the same issue. I used to use receipe #2 always, but found pH was a a little low via my Apex. I decided to switch to recipe #1 and then had a pump get stuck and the "event" took place. Since I can't get Alk up and it is coating pumps, heaters and sump wall.. I was up to 390ml of Alk in my 110 gallon.

I loved using receipe 1, doing water changes and cleaning equipment, and now considering switching back to baking Soda solution. I hope that once stableni can go back.. did you?
 
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mcarroll

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No way I'll switch back. One precip event is enough for a lifetime. It took several months for the chemistry to settle back down completely.

I don't even recommend #1 anymore. And I really don't think that's the best way, or even a very good way, to address a CO2 problem (saying pH problem isn't entirely accurate since pH is only a symptom)....definitely better, less risky ways. Fresh air has to be the best, but there are CO2-removing medias too.

There should be a (stronger?) warning along with the Recipe 1 instructions, IMO.

Good luck and let us know how things progress!!!

pH monitoring is such a double-edged sword that it's not funny. How many reefers do you suppose have been led astray like that? (Lots!!!!!) I'd shut off the pH monitor and quit using Recipe 1. :) :D
 

Joey Vagneur

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8 years in Sps and this is my 1st event as well. It's been a rough month chasing this chemistry goast.

Thanks for the info I feel like you just solved my mystery. Lol.

I will keep you posted!
 

bif24701

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I would think that a rise in pH is much more likely to causes precipitation than lower.
 
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mcarroll

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+1

It was caused by a pH rise from dosing baked-baking soda in quantity.

In my case (beginning of thread) I was using Recipe #1 in the first place, just following directions from the recipe. Then, with circumstances, I had an event and (iirc) Randy told me to switch to Recipe #2 so some CO2 would be delivered along with the carbonates keeping the pH stable, or at least not letting it spike.

In @Joey Vagneur's case, there was a switch to Recipe #1 to try and boost pH. Too successful.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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There should be a (stronger?) warning along with the Recipe 1 instructions, IMO.

Most people do not get excessive pH using sodium carbonate. I'm not convinced you did either unless you dosed too fast. :)
 

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