Angel with velvet?

Bluebetty · Jan 27, 2017

Hello, so I'm 3 days into quarentine on my angel with suspected velvet. Treating with copper. He's doing better, the white spots over the eyes have disappeared. But now I am seeing a little bit of a coating on the clown on top in the photo in the main tank. The thing is, I think it's been in my main tank for months and my fish were immune to a point. Recent stress from a few new tank mate attempts sent angel over the top though. He had the yellowish coating for a long time (months) but only recently began scratching and letting the shrimp clean his gills. That's when I also noticed the white over his eyes, respiratory distress and began to investigate the pathogen and treatment options. So my question is : is it possible that my fish are going to be OK and are possibly immune in my main tank? Or are they likely to all get infected and die? I just can't decide who and when to take to the hospital tank. I feel like it's a death sentence. Even though angel is hanging strong. From the reading it sounds like velvet is almost always so quick to kill, but my case seems odd. Long and drawn out with a lot of hopeful thinking. This is very stressful and depressing for me and my fishy friends. Please help me diagnose and decide when to treat what needs to be treated.

Bluebetty · Jan 27, 2017

Ugh, I think it's on my cardinal too. So, how many fish can fit in a 10g hospital tank? Do I just toss them all in there? What a nightmare.

Bluebetty · Jan 27, 2017

Just ordered a copper test kit. I think I'll wait the two days until I get it before moving the other two affected fish over. The package said no water changes needed for the copper treatment but I'm surely going to have to do more and often if I have a bunch of fish in a tiny tank.

Maritimer · Jan 27, 2017

Welcome to Reef2Reef, BlueBetty!

You may want to pick up a somewhat larger tank - I think the Petco $1/gallon sale runs through the end of the month, and if there's velvet in your display, it needs to remain empty of all fish life for some six weeks . . . Some Petcos apply the $1/gallon sale to tanks up to 75 gallons - my local one doesn't stock that size, but offers 40-breeders and 55 gallon tanks, which should be a comfortable enough temporary home for your finny crew.

If you've got velvet in your display, the fish will _all_ need to come out into a hospital setting. I can't even begin to imagine trying to "manage" velvet. It generally works its deadly magic pretty fast. Copper will maintain a presence in the water fairly well, so water changes aren't needed on that basis, but with a heavy bioload, water changes will undoubtedly be required! When you change the water, it's a good idea to add copper to the new water _before_ you add the water to the tank, so that fish aren't subjected to less-than-therapeutic levels of copper at any time. (The velvet parasite won't be either - no quarter, no mercy to velvet parasites!!)

~Bruce, with fingers crossed for your beautiful fish!

melypr1985 · Jan 27, 2017

Bluebetty said:
Hello, so I'm 3 days into quarentine on my angel with suspected velvet. Treating with copper. He's doing better, the white spots over the eyes have disappeared. But now I am seeing a little bit of a coating on the clown on top in the photo in the main tank. The thing is, I think it's been in my main tank for months and my fish were immune to a point. Recent stress from a few new tank mate attempts sent angel over the top though. He had the yellowish coating for a long time (months) but only recently began scratching and letting the shrimp clean his gills. That's when I also noticed the white over his eyes, respiratory distress and began to investigate the pathogen and treatment options. So my question is : is it possible that my fish are going to be OK and are possibly immune in my main tank? Or are they likely to all get infected and die? I just can't decide who and when to take to the hospital tank. I feel like it's a death sentence. Even though angel is hanging strong. From the reading it sounds like velvet is almost always so quick to kill, but my case seems odd. Long and drawn out with a lot of hopeful thinking. This is very stressful and depressing for me and my fishy friends. Please help me diagnose and decide when to treat what needs to be treated.

I'm sorry sweetie but I can't tell anything conclusive from these pictures. Can you possibly get some clearer ones? It might help a bit more with figuring out if this is ick or velvet. If you have velvet in your tank, don't wait... get them all out and into treatment with copper. A larger tank - as pointed out- can be had for pretty darn cheap at Petco right now.

Bluebetty · Feb 7, 2017

Just passed 2 weeks! QT with the angel is still going alright. He only rarely eats, and sometimes I have to use garlic to persuade him. He is looking pale though, and tends to float a little sideways when I do the copper treated water changes. He's been clear of white spots or film since 4 days into treatment. My DT is totally good. No signs of stress or pathogens anywhere. I never did move any other fish to quarentine since they improved within 24 hours of my posts. Can I just put the angel back in the DT? I know 4 weeks is best, but instead of velvet killing him, I'm worried the QT environment is the issue. (SG creeps up quicker, nitrates were high, the water is ever so slightly cloudy, the copper level is difficult to know reliably with the test kit, the fish is turning pale, and sits sideways more than I would like, also is too busy trying to hide than his want to come out to eat.) I could always take him back to QT if signs return. Then maybe the small QT tank would be cycled and more stable too?

Reefahholic · Feb 8, 2017

Bluebetty said:
Just passed 2 weeks! QT with the angel is still going alright. He only rarely eats, and sometimes I have to use garlic to persuade him. He is looking pale though, and tends to float a little sideways when I do the copper treated water changes. He's been clear of white spots or film since 4 days into treatment. My DT is totally good. No signs of stress or pathogens anywhere. I never did move any other fish to quarentine since they improved within 24 hours of my posts. Can I just put the angel back in the DT? I know 4 weeks is best, but instead of velvet killing him, I'm worried the QT environment is the issue. (SG creeps up quicker, nitrates were high, the water is ever so slightly cloudy, the copper level is difficult to know reliably with the test kit, the fish is turning pale, and sits sideways more than I would like, also is too busy trying to hide than his want to come out to eat.) I could always take him back to QT if signs return. Then maybe the small QT tank would be cycled and more stable too?

If the fish is hiding, not eating, etc. Do not put him in the DT. Lets be real...Do a simple water change in the QT and get the parameters back to normal. Leave the fish in there and treat the symptoms until the appropriate QT duration has been reached and the fish visibly looks good and is acting normal.

4FordFamily · Feb 8, 2017

I agree do not add to DT

jenreefer · Feb 8, 2017

What equipment do you have on your quarantine tank? Are you monitoring the water for ammonia build up? I suspect the water quality is poor. You may need to do a 50% water change minimum and improve the water quality. I use a hob filter with floss. I change out the floss multiple times each week to make sure that the water stays prime. I also to a 50% water change on a 10 gallon QT once a week.

I know this is frustrating, but it can be done. Do not give up now.
Here is a really great article on how to quarantine

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/

Good luck

Bluebetty · Feb 8, 2017

I'm doing 50% every Tuesday. Replaced with treated copper water. The water was showing high nitrates/nitrites...Still higher than I would like after the change.
I was keeping him in the dark because I read the fish are light sensitive during this time. My lighting is just the LEDs that came with the 10 gal tank anyway. Is that appropriate? Should I put him back on a regular light schedule and do I need to add a better light source?
I have the biofilter only running in the HOB that came with the tank. I was thinking that was supposed to stay unchanged and would help stabilize the tank. But you say to change it out? This was an emergency QT set up so nothing is cycled or stable. Every manipulation stresses my fish, so I'm hesitant to do more frequent water changes.
I guess if I understood the reason I would be better able to finish the 4 weeks. The only reason to keep him in QT is to reduce risk of transmission to the DT. If the copper keeps the swimming and feeding form from progressing through the cycle, then we are only worried about the encysted pathogen left. I thought the encysted form was supposedly dropped to the bottom of the tank, not hanging on the fish or in his gills. Am I wrong? So why would putting a pathogen free fish back in his stable, cycled, familiar environment be wrong?
I'll read the QT article and do the floss as suggested, just frustrated. Sorry.

Josett Waid · Feb 8, 2017

Hi I just wanted to point out since I don't believe anyone has said anything(sorry after going over the convo again I saw Mel. and Mart. Said taking them all out for velvet) but all your fish should be pulled out of your DT because if one fish has velvet or ich they all have it. It may seem like it goes away but it'll come back, I'm dealing with the same issues right now with ich. It seems like it goes away but it comes right back but all my fish are in QT. So I would suggest getting all your fish out of your tank and put them in QT. I think you said something about the QT tank being small but as stated you can get some tanks for little to no money. I found a 10g tank on the side of the road that I use as a QT but I'm not saying that can magically happen for you but in conclusion all fish need to be taken out and left in QT for 6weeks for velvet and 72-76 days for ich. If you're not completely sure on what it is keep the fish in QT for 76 days. While this your DT will be fallow and once the 76 days is over your DT would be rid of all diseases.

ebushrow · Feb 8, 2017

Bluebetty said:
I'm doing 50% every Tuesday. Replaced with treated copper water. The water was showing high nitrates/nitrites...Still higher than I would like after the change.
I was keeping him in the dark because I read the fish are light sensitive during this time. My lighting is just the LEDs that came with the 10 gal tank anyway. Is that appropriate? Should I put him back on a regular light schedule and do I need to add a better light source?
I have the biofilter only running in the HOB that came with the tank. I was thinking that was supposed to stay unchanged and would help stabilize the tank. But you say to change it out? This was an emergency QT set up so nothing is cycled or stable. Every manipulation stresses my fish, so I'm hesitant to do more frequent water changes.
I guess if I understood the reason I would be better able to finish the 4 weeks. The only reason to keep him in QT is to reduce risk of transmission to the DT. If the copper keeps the swimming and feeding form from progressing through the cycle, then we are only worried about the encysted pathogen left. I thought the encysted form was supposedly dropped to the bottom of the tank, not hanging on the fish or in his gills. Am I wrong? So why would putting a pathogen free fish back in his stable, cycled, familiar environment be wrong?
I'll read the QT article and do the floss as suggested, just frustrated. Sorry.

High Nitrates or Nitrites? or both?

Empress · Feb 8, 2017

ebushrow said:
High Nitrates or Nitrites? or both?

You won't have to worry about those 2 things. But you will need an ammonia badge asap if you don't already have one.

You only need to keep an eye on ammonia, temperature (low end of 70's is good for QT), and salinity (again, keep it low; hypo isn't needed since you'll be dosing copper or cp anyway). And you'll need a ammonia test kit.

See Humblefish's sticky on how to QT. Good luck.

Bluebetty · Feb 9, 2017

jenreefer said:
What equipment do you have on your quarantine tank? Are you monitoring the water for ammonia build up? I suspect the water quality is poor. You may need to do a 50% water change minimum and improve the water quality. I use a hob filter with floss. I change out the floss multiple times each week to make sure that the water stays prime. I also to a 50% water change on a 10 gallon QT once a week.

I know this is frustrating, but it can be done. Do not give up now.
Here is a really great article on how to quarantine

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/

Good luck

Thanks, I'm trying!
I have a 10 gal tank, came with HOB filter, LED lights , and I added a heater, temp gauge, air stone, and a few plastic plants to "hide" in. I also put a small amount of gravel in there too. I plan to throw the plants and gravel out after this fish is done with QT.
When I first read a emergency QT article I looked for an ammonia badge, but Petco is my only LFS (40 min drive) and they didn't have them. I just ordered one on Amazon.
When I do the 50% weekly water changes I don't see much waste at all compared to my other small tank experience. But I figure without a chance to cycle before adding the sick fish, the little tank is struggling to stabilize. If the badge shows ammonia, is there a way to treat it with the copper in there already? Or just do more frequent water changes?
(Btw, I do not have the means to get a bigger QT at this time. It wasn't long ago I thought all my fish were going to die and I'd start all over. Slower and with all fish going through QT this time. Honestly, I can't believe the angel is still alive after he was so sick. The emergency QT was a last ditch effort mix of cheap starter materials and the luck that I had extras from an old small tank. Similar to most reefers I've invested hundreds if not thousands into my DT in the last two years. But I just can't justify the third setup at this time. Please don't think I am not trying. I'm just being realistic. Cheap, small fixes like ammonia badge, and water changes, I can handle. But buying an entire new bigger tank and full system, not so much...) Thank you so much for any answers and advise. You all rock!

jenreefer · Feb 9, 2017

I completely understand. Yes, water changes are the only option with copper treatment. You need to clean the filter in the HOB several times a week. I run mine under tap water until it is clean, soak in a bit of vinegar if it is really bad, then let water drain from it and place back in hob. I also keep extra floss so I can just place a new piece of floss in there while cleaning and drying the last piece. The other option is to toss the old piece and keep replacing. Floss is cheap.

I have had all my fish in QT since Early December due to a velvet outbreak so I feel your pain. My finish date is March 1st.

germs101 · Feb 9, 2017

You can actually put your fish in a 30 gallon Rubbermaid for $8. They sell them at Home Depot. It's an option. I totally understand the financial burden, however when all your fish die because of this then you'll wish you did. I speak from experience