Are there disease resistant fish?

OP
OP
john.m.cole3

john.m.cole3

cyclOps
View Badges
Joined
Apr 1, 2015
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
2,231
Location
Lubbock, TX
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yeah I recently lost 8/10 to velvet also. The 2 survivors were a percula clown and an engineer goby. I didn't know if there was an exception. Thanks for all of the responses.
 

FarmerTy

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
6,509
Reaction score
28,245
Location
Austin
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yeah I recently lost 8/10 to velvet also. The 2 survivors were a percula clown and an engineer goby. I didn't know if there was an exception. Thanks for all of the responses.
Sorry for your losses. I was pretty devastated with mine.
 
OP
OP
john.m.cole3

john.m.cole3

cyclOps
View Badges
Joined
Apr 1, 2015
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
2,231
Location
Lubbock, TX
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yeah it was a tough week of losing a fish or 2 every day. I was ripping the tank apart to catch all of the fish, buying and setting up QT tanks, slowly bringing up copper, losing a fish or 2 every day, and you know how it goes. It was almost easier and less stressful once they all passed so I could make plans to run fallow and re-boot. 2 more days til my fallow period is over and all fish will be QT in some way or another. I know more people w. successful tanks that QT vs. those that do not. Not saying their way is wrong, but I choose to go the extra mile now days. Y'all enjoy the rest of your day!
 

Humblefish

Dr. Fish
View Badges
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
22,424
Reaction score
34,844
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Ok, now that we are playing devil's advocate, if velvet was introduced to a tank of healthy fish, what are the different fish that would be able to either not contract or fight off the disease?

Fish with thin mucous coats - tangs, basslets, puffers, butterflyfish - would be most at risk.

Fish with thick mucous coats - clownfish, wrasses, mandarins - would have the best chance for survival.

Many times following a velvet outbreak, clownfish are the only ones left standing.
 
OP
OP
john.m.cole3

john.m.cole3

cyclOps
View Badges
Joined
Apr 1, 2015
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
2,231
Location
Lubbock, TX
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Fish with thin mucous coats - tangs, basslets, puffers, butterflyfish - would be most at risk.

Fish with thick mucous coats - clownfish, wrasses, mandarins - would have the best chance for survival.

Many times following a velvet outbreak, clownfish are the only ones left standing.
so why are wrasse so sensitive to cupramine then? I'm trying to develop a QT protocol for wrasse and gobies w/o having access to CP.
 

Humblefish

Dr. Fish
View Badges
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
22,424
Reaction score
34,844
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
so why are wrasse so sensitive to cupramine then? I'm trying to develop a QT protocol for wrasse and gobies w/o having access to CP.

Based upon anecdotal experience, they appear to be more sensitive to Cupramine than a chelated copper product such as Coppersafe or Copper Power. @vedros74 @4FordFamily @melypr1985 can all testify to this.

However, I feel TTM is ideal for such small fish: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

You just need a tight fitting lid (either way) to prevent jumping with wrasses & gobies.
 

melypr1985

totally addicted
View Badges
Joined
May 4, 2014
Messages
15,113
Reaction score
23,543
Location
Dallas area
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Based upon anecdotal experience, they appear to be more sensitive to Cupramine than a chelated copper product such as Coppersafe or Copper Power. @vedros74 @4FordFamily @melypr1985 can all testify to this.

However, I feel TTM is ideal for such small fish: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

You just need a tight fitting lid (either way) to prevent jumping with wrasses & gobies.

Yes, I've had good experiences with coppersafe in particular with wrasses and all kinds of other fish. At home I prefer TTM also, but it's not feasible at the LFS I work at so we use Coppersafe.
 

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,948
Reaction score
60,748
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Eatbreakfast I have to respectifully disagree with some of your points. I believe a fishes immune system needs constant influxes from disease organisms to remain healthy. My tank and many other's prove that beyond a doubt. (I posted on here someplace a thread about immunity with references so I didn't make this up) In a few years my tank will be 50 years old. Some of my fish are 25, in all that time it makes sense that velvet was introduced dozens if not hundreds of times, yet there has never been a case of it in my reef in at least 35 years.
Am I that lucky! or that good an aquarist? I don't think so. I am not that smart. :eek: Just look at all the disease threads. Especially from people who quarantined. How many threads start, "I quarantined for 72 days and lost all my livestock"?
Why did their fish die while I can (and do) throw flounders and all sorts of other things in my tank. Marine velvet would do nothing to my fish even if I had a tank full of tangs.
I do add amphipods from the sea, but only in the summer.
And about if my fish die from old age. I actually do autopsy and have been for many years. :) I have posted my results many times and in not one case have I found parasites on a dead fish Unless I just bought it as a test or got it for free. I advocate autopsying and mention it in my book. If you have gobies dozens of times, you get to know what their lifespan is. I know clowns live to be about 30 years old as many people keep them that long. No one has kept one for 40 years so I assume their lifespan is about 30 years. Humans live about 100 years. A very few lived to 112 and one or two lived to 118. But our lifespan is about 95 or so years. None of us lived to 150 and fish also can't live past a certain time but all fish have a different lifespan. I know what disease looks like and I know what to look for in an autopsy.
I do add mud from the sea but I don't think that has anything to do with the fishes lifespan. I think that would do more for the bacteria in the substrate and hopefully help control nutrients in the water. I believe (and I could be wrong as I am not the God of fish) that it is the daily influx of live bacteria from live blackworms and clams is what keeps my fish immune. And they are immune because any scientific study lasts much shorter than the 35 years that my fish have been disease free. I think 35 years in any study would conclude that the fish are immune or at least their immunity can last for 35 years.
The vast majority of people in this hobby have disease problems, Why is that? I think I know. :D
I wrote a few articles about my thoughts so I don't have to post them here. I know it is boreing but it is what it is. :rolleyes:

I wrote this about how to tell if your fish is dying of old age.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/how-to-tell-marine-fish-dying-old-age-5782/

I wrote this about fish biology.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/fish-biology-lesson-3230/

This about the merits of feeding fish oil.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/in-praise-of-fish-oil-6127/

This about feeding fish
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/want-healthy-spawning-fish-feed-them-properly-5010/
 
Last edited:

eatbreakfast

Fish Nerd
View Badges
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,837
Reaction score
16,232
Location
CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Eatbreakfast I have to respectifully disagree with some of your points. I believe a fishes immune system needs constant influxes from disease organisms to remain healthy. My tank and many other's prove that beyond a doubt. (I posted on here someplace a thread about immunity with references so I didn't make this up) In a few years my tank will be 50 years old. Some of my fish are 25, in all that time it makes sense that velvet was introduced dozens if not hundreds of times, yet there has never been a case of it in my reef in at least 35 years.
Am I that lucky! or that good an aquarist? I don't think so. I am not that smart. :eek: Just look at all the disease threads. Especially from people who quarantined. How many threads start, "I quarantined for 72 days and lost all my livestock"?
Why did their fish die while I can (and do) throw flounders and all sorts of other things in my tank. Marine velvet would do nothing to my fish even if I had a tank full of tangs.
I do add amphipods from the sea, but only in the summer.
And about if my fish die from old age. I actually do autopsy and have been for many years. :) I have posted my results many times and in not one case have I found parasites on a dead fish Unless I just bought it as a test or got it for free. I advocate autopsying and mention it in my book. If you have gobies dozens of times, you get to know what their lifespan is. I know clowns live to be about 30 years old as many people keep them that long. No one has kept one for 40 years so I assume their lifespan is about 30 years. Humans live about 100 years. A very few lived to 112 and one or two lived to 118. But our lifespan is about 95 or so years. None of us lived to 150 and fish also can't live past a certain time but all fish have a different lifespan. I know what disease looks like and I know what to look for in an autopsy.
I do add mud from the sea but I don't think that has anything to do with the fishes lifespan. I think that would do more for the bacteria in the substrate and hopefully help control nutrients in the water. I believe (and I could be wrong as I am not the God of fish) that it is the daily influx of live bacteria from live blackworms and clams is what keeps my fish immune. And they are immune because any scientific study lasts much shorter than the 35 years that my fish have been disease free. I think 35 years in any study would conclude that the fish are immune or at least their immunity can last for 35 years.
The vast majority of people in this hobby have disease problems, Why is that? I think I know. :D
I wrote a few articles about my thoughts so I don't have to post them here. I know it is boreing but it is what it is. :rolleyes:

I wrote this about how to tell if your fish is dying of old age.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/how-to-tell-marine-fish-dying-old-age-5782/

I wrote this about fish biology.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/fish-biology-lesson-3230/

This about the merits of feeding fish oil.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/in-praise-of-fish-oil-6127/

This about feeding fish
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/want-healthy-spawning-fish-feed-them-properly-5010/
For every time somebody posts on diswase forums even though they quarantined, there are ten-fold more of those that post on disease forums that didn't quarantine.

If fish have a healthy immune system and encounter a disease or parasite, that disease or parasite isn't magically repelled, but rather it is present and dealt with. So, in fact, it should still be visible upon autopsy, even if that wasn't the cause of death. You even mention in the article on old age that the fish's immune system begins to deteriorate, which is why tattered fins become more evident,so some semblance of parasites or disease should be present on a properly executed autopsy, yet you mention that there is not one of any of the fish you autopsy.

Again, I agree that the addition of fish oil, and other natural sources of bacteria go a long way in supporting their immunity, but I am fairly confident, that usingthese in conjunction with an adequate qt protocol would be even more effective.
 

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,948
Reaction score
60,748
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I am not sure if it is magic, but there is no disease. I said upon the fish dying you may see some parasites on the fish. (possibly just a few) But I have never seen any on the gills. Parasites have no reason to stay on a dead fish. I am sure there are parasites in my tank. At least I hope there are. I am going to my boat today and will collect some grass shrimp and maybe amphipods to dump in my tank. Whatever they are carrying will go straight in my tank as they have been since the tank was started. I may be wrong as I said, I am not the God of fish. But then what is your opinion as to why my fish and fish in many other natural tanks never get sick?
Quarantining could possibly have problems but a system where the fish are immune can't have such problems because the system actually becomes healthier with diseases and parasites, not the other way around.
Eatbreakfast, I just finished eating breakfast :D and I am going to my boat. I enjoyed this conversation but we will never agree and that is a good thing. It is what makes this hobby fun. We will always have people who feel the need to quarantine and people who do it a different way :)
 

MikeyAl

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
822
Reaction score
230
Location
Alabama
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Some fish are more resistant to disease and parasites, though still able to get it.

Wrasses and clownfish produce a relatively thicker slime coat that is more difficult for some parasites to penetrate.

Fish that are hardy won't get stressed out as easily as more delicate fish, and when stressed fish's immune systems don't work as they should.

Other methods, such as ttm can be utilized to guard against particularly virulent pathogens.

I don't use copper with wrasses, though I am beginning to suspect their sensitivity to copper is in part to misdosed copper, or a new wrasse's frailty, rather than the copper itself.

Great thread. I am risk averse and only have 7 small fish (watchman goby, pair of ocellaris, a sixline, 2 pajama cards, and one chromis)- in a 90 gallon tank. want to add more life but have been hesitant since my fish are doing so well- and I follow Paul B.s advice.

So I am thinking of adding a few more chromis, a couple of firefish, a dotty back. Any other suggestions on safe fish- of course I will put all in QT.
thanks
 

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,948
Reaction score
60,748
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Mikey, if you always quarantine, you should continue doing so. Try to get your fish into spawning mode anyway, they will thank you. Not out loud maybe.
To get fish into spawning mode you need real food, not flakes or pellets. Frozen, fresh or the best live food is the secret. Of course if you wanted to follow my thinking, you would need food with live bacteria. But not everyone agrees with my thinking so make up your mind what to do and stick with that.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

Some fresh amphipods.
 

MikeyAl

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
822
Reaction score
230
Location
Alabama
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Mikey, if you always quarantine, you should continue doing so. Try to get your fish into spawning mode anyway, they will thank you. Not out loud maybe.
To get fish into spawning mode you need real food, not flakes or pellets. Frozen, fresh or the best live food is the secret. Of course if you wanted to follow my thinking, you would need food with live bacteria. But not everyone agrees with my thinking so make up your mind what to do and stick with that.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

Some fresh amphipods.

Thank you so much. I have read a lot of your stuff and am following your advice- I do soak in fish oil and I have noticed a big difference. Thank you for willing to share your experience and expertise.
Mike.
 

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,948
Reaction score
60,748
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thanks Mike, but keep in mind, the majority of people will disagree with me. It is not as easy as throwing fish or mud into your tank. There is more to it than that. :D
 

MikeyAl

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
822
Reaction score
230
Location
Alabama
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The majority of people haven't had healthy fish as long as you have [emoji3]
 

MikeyAl

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
822
Reaction score
230
Location
Alabama
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Mikey, if you always quarantine, you should continue doing so. Try to get your fish into spawning mode anyway, they will thank you. Not out loud maybe.
To get fish into spawning mode you need real food, not flakes or pellets. Frozen, fresh or the best live food is the secret. Of course if you wanted to follow my thinking, you would need food with live bacteria. But not everyone agrees with my thinking so make up your mind what to do and stick with that.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

Some fresh amphipods.

Disregard post about bloodworms
 
Last edited:

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,948
Reaction score
60,748
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Mikey, this salt water hobby is 45 years old. It was started in America in 1971, (I think it was on a Tuesday about 1:30 in the afternoon) a little earlier in Europe.
The hobby is predominately Noobs by far because for some reason, most people don't stay in it very long. You can tell by how many threads start with "Noob here".
People try something, it works once, it is written about and soon becomes taken as fact. That is how we got garlic cures, cleaner shrimp cures, ginger cures and so forth.
We also have many people post that their clownfish spawned and their methods are also taken as fact even though clownfish will spawn by eating cardboard with a picture of a clam on it. Most damsels are very easy to spawn and many will spawn on flakes. Then we have the numerous TOTM threads and those tanks are of course beautiful. But the truth is that if you take a bunch of money and throw it at a tank it should look beautiful. Have you seen many of those tanks 10 or 20 years later? My tank also has it's share of problems. In it's life I have lost enough corals to populate the Great Barrier Reef. I am much better with fish than corals. My tank is also set up much better for fish because it is very over fed and corals hate that. After a lifetime of doing this, 60+ years I have learned a few things and can look past the rumors and much of the inside the box stuff. I learned after many failures how to keep Moorish Idols, copperband butterflies, mandarins etc. I also learned after killing more fish than Starkist Tuna how to keep fish healthy for their entire natural lifespan. I know it is bacteria, viruses, algae and parasites that keep a tank healthy as I have proved it. I am to old to care if anyone else believes me. I am just trying to teach the methods that seem to be working for "me". I have had this hobby very long before computers were invented and will be in it until I croak. :eek: I am on 6 or 7 of these fish forums and kind of gave up trying to tell my theories as it is just to much trouble as most people are in the box because that's where, unfortunately most of the information comes from. This hobby is not that hard, but we make it hard. It is very hard to imagine that diseases can make a fish healthier because it goes backwards in people's minds even though now human doctors realize that our gut health and micro fauna controls our health which is the reason for the billion dollar ProBiotic industry. Why would people take living bacteria? Why do we inject ourselves with viruses to make ourselves immune to such things as Polio and the measles? We could just keep the people with those diseases out or do like we did 200 years ago where we put people with leprosy on deserted Islands and let them die.
We were in the dark ages then, just like we are in keeping fish. But it will change. Slowly. :rolleyes:
 

eatbreakfast

Fish Nerd
View Badges
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,837
Reaction score
16,232
Location
CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Probiotics help for sure, as does fish oil, etc, but there are still a number of threads on disease forums where people are feeding live blackworms(part of their benefit according to Paul b is that since they are alive, have beneficial gut bacteria), or even adding fish oil to foods. While posts are not as frequently as those that don't utilize those methods, that likely speaks to the percentage of aquarists taking those steps.

While the benefits of bacteria that are found in the gut are becoming more and more apparent, it doesn't make one invincible to germs. It doesn't matter how healthy your diet is or how many probiotics you take, you still want the person making your food to have washed their hands after going to the bathroom, not a case of "I'm healthy enough, my immune sysytem can handle it.

Vaccines are used and are effective, not because of introducing a full-strength pathogen, rather they are weakened, dead, or dying versions. The reason being is that one these "full-strength" germs win against the immune system. Last I checked there isn't a source of fish vaccines of weakened pathogens.

The methodologies employed help, a lot, and have been able to keep Paul b's tank healthy, but I still have encountered those that try to emulate them and still end up with disease. It may push it off later than it otherwise would have, but it is still not a panacea for disease and parasites.
 

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,948
Reaction score
60,748
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The big problem with not quarantining is that many people don't do it correctly. If your fish are not in great shape to begin with or are not in spawning mode, abstaining from quarantining will probably kill your fish. There is a process that goes along with it that would first get the fish in excellent condition. Also, if you have been quarantining for a long time I feel that your fishes immune system is very weak or even non existent. Just my opinion of course but if you read many threads you will see where almost any time someone buys a fish, they have some sort of disease. I will ask again: Why do my fish stay healthy?
I also believe we modern humans have lost much of our immunity from washing our hands. I know that sounds disgusting and I do wash my hands but I served a year in the jungles of Viet Nam. I never left the jungle, rarely had the chance to wash my hands as we had no clean water, soap, electricity, roof, walls, sanitation or anything else and I never got sick. Not even a pimple. The Vietnamese people also did not get sick and they had worse conditions than us. I saw many Vietnamese soldiers eat a chicken by holding it by it's head and feet while burning one part over a C4 fire. Take a bite from that part and burn another part. So much for thoroughly cooking chicken. Those people did that every day with chickens, turtles, lizard's and rats and I never saw anyone get sick. None of those dead animals were washed in anything. If we did that, I am sure the emergency rooms would be mobbed. The only water we had was leech infested swamps or what they delivered in rubber "blivats" which were filled from rivers by helicopters.
Before we went to Nam we were injected with all sorts of vaccines.
We Americans also had to take anti malaria pills every day as it was a court martial offense to get malaria. If you took the pills you were protected. (those pills we now sometimes use for ich, quinicrine hydrochloride) The native people had no pills but they also did not get malaria as long as they had the chance to eat correctly. They were, for all practical purposes, immune. They got immunity because growing up in that place they were bitten by malaria mosquitoes multiple times every day as mosquitoes' there are like Liberal's here. You can't get away from them and un protected, "immune weak" Americans are sure to get Malaria.
This is me with a friend, or as some people referred to it, Lunch
Notice the mud. It rained all the time and when it wasn't raining, it was raining harder.


In this particular place we built "condo's" out of our poncho's, we had no tents. Notice the sanitation.



 
Last edited:

Humblefish

Dr. Fish
View Badges
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
22,424
Reaction score
34,844
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The big problem with not quarantining is that many people don't do it correctly.

There's a learning curve to overcome with QT, just like with everything else in this hobby. How many soft corals did many of us kill before we eventually got good at growing SPS? :rolleyes: Every time you QT, you get a little bit better at it. You figure out things, little ins & outs, you didn't know before.
 

A worm with high fashion and practical utility: Have you ever kept feather dusters in your reef aquarium?

  • I currently have feather dusters in my tank.

    Votes: 68 37.8%
  • Not currently, but I have had feather dusters in my tank in the past.

    Votes: 59 32.8%
  • I have not had feather dusters, but I hope to in the future.

    Votes: 25 13.9%
  • I have no plans to have feather dusters in my tank.

    Votes: 28 15.6%
  • Other.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
Back
Top