Automatic, regular, unattended alkalinity monitoring

rockworm

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Congratulations Jim. As an accountant, I love to see success for those who take the risk to work on something revolutionary. You have invested much in this and I will definitely be looking forward to using your sytem. (I have a 400g SPS tank and your invention will be indispensable)
 
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Thales

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(I know mine is a minority opinion, but personally I won't touch apex with a 10' pole....not even someone else's pole. I've seen the programming. It violates my K.I.S.S. principle too thoroughly. Reefkeeper is as far from KISS as I get. For better or worse. ;))
I shared that opinion for a long time. When I got the apex it was really for only one reason - to turn my MH off when the tank go to hot. As I got to trust it over 3 or 4 years I love it and have added lots to it.
 

bklynreef

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This is a revolutionary break through in SPS Dominated systems which heavily rely of this factor and intricacy of its monitoring. If you need a beta tester my 787 Gallon Display is at your service. I check alk 3-4 times a week so this is a game changer for me.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Yes, Jonas, the diurnal swing I observe and describe is due to two factors: (1) I dose Randy's Recipe #1 in small increments evenly throughout the day, so alkalinity supplementation is constant, and (2) Alkalinity demand increases during the day when corals are actively calcifying, and is substantially reduced at night when this process slows significantly.

You know what might be really interesting, Jim, is if you (or anyone) rigged up a system where the pH was higher at night.

That way we could see if the higher alk demand during the day was driven by photosynthesis , or by the pH, or a mix of the two. :)
 
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JimWelsh

JimWelsh

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You know what might be really interesting, Jim, is if you (or anyone) rigged up a system where the pH was higher at night.

That way we could see if the higher alk demand during the day was driven by photosynthesis , or by the pH, or a mix of the two. :)
Something like dosing seltzer water during the day to lower pH without affecting TA, and then dosing kalkwasser at night in an appropriate amount to keep up with alk demand and raise the nighttime pH?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Something like dosing seltzer water during the day to lower pH without affecting TA, and then dosing kalkwasser at night in an appropriate amount to keep up with alk demand and raise the nighttime pH?

Yes. :)
 

pickupman66

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Not sure how easy dosing seltzer water would be but directly dosing CO2 is nothing new in the planted tank arena. Using a diffuser along with a solenoid valve it would help introduce carbon into the water and push pH down when desired.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Here's the seltzer section from one of my pH articles:

  1. Direct addition of carbon dioxide: Bottled soda water (seltzer) can be used to instantly reduce an aquarium’s pH. Be sure to select unflavored soda water, and check its ingredients to be sure it doesn’t contain anything that should be avoided (phosphate, etc.). Many manufacturers list water and carbon dioxide as the only ingredients.
I recommend adding 6 mL of soda water per gallon of tank water to reduce pH by about 0.3 units. Add it to a high flow area away from organisms (such as in a sump). The local pH where it first is added will be very low. Going about this procedure slowly is better than proceeding too fast. If you do not have a sump, add it especially slowly. Some soda water may have more or less carbon dioxide in it than others, and the lower the aquarium’s alkalinity, the more the pH will drop. Also, the higher the pH, the less the pH will drop, because seawater’s buffering capability declines steadily as the pH drops from about 9 to 7.5.
 

NeverlosT

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I won a state science fair as a kid bubbling CO2 into a reef tank. Let me tell you that was one great demonstration of ocean acidification!

I agree, that experiment of keeping even pH day and night and monitoring alk would be interesting.
 

JonasRoman

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I this really a study we need to do? Do not we know quite much about the mechanism of calcification so we already have the answer? Maybe I am wrong, I am not sure, but I would guess that a study like this would show that the alkalinity consumption would still be lower in the night, BUT the difference would be a little lower than in a natural system with pH difference. I think in this way: There are 2 forces to consumption alk. First the spontaneous which is very much driven my a higher pH, and there is the biological. The biological, thus in the coral, is also favored by higher pH in the environment water as far as I have understood, as it is more easy for the coral to "through out" the H+ from the obtained HCO3, to get CO3, and thus create CaCO3. But, as the coral also have a zooxanthella, and we know by studies that the photosynthesis in zooxanthelles have positive effect on formation of CacO3, the light itself also will improve the CaCO3 formation even if the pH in the water in the tank is of a lower pH, as the local pH in the coral, in the CaCO3-fixations local process, hav a higher pH due to the zoox local consumption of co2. Therefore I do think that the light will have an impact of alk-consumption even if the pH in environmental water is lower. So, this experiment you talk about (which of course is interesting, all exp are), I think will give the results that alk consumption is still some lower at night, BUT the difference comparing to a natural system, is slight lower, as even if the coral have internal CaCO3 formations process it is probably more easy for it if also the environment water have a higher pH.

And: I have seen very often the scenario that when we increase light, we got a remarkable increase of alkalinity consumption(if you have a lot of sps), but NOT that corresponding increase in pH. That gives some fuel to my thoughts above. The light itself due to the zoox have a very high potential to favorite CaCO3 in the coral, and it is not so dependent of the surrounding pH. That is maybe a very good survival strategy of the coral, and one of the reasons of the zoox symbiotic partnership:). Of course there are limits, where ocean acidification get ot more difficult for the coral. It can not compensate a low pH in the water over a certain point of course, thus: if we in your experiment idea settle the pH to a too low level, I think we reach a point where there is no difference in alk consumption during day and night...but then we have reached the point where the coral due to too low pH cannot calcify despite the light.

/Jonas
 
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CoralNerd

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I know my tank for sure uses less alkalinity at night. My ph is always sky high with my c02 scrubber and Kessil refugium light. When I test in the morning the alk is lower compared to the afternoon test.
 

JonasRoman

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I know my tank for sure uses less alkalinity at night. My ph is always sky high with my c02 scrubber and Kessil refugium light. When I test in the morning the alk is lower compared to the afternoon test.
Then your observations speak same language as my beliefs as you flattening your ph curve in some way according to the study Randy asks for and still notice difference in alk consumption. It is not the ph itself which is so much responsible for the difference in alk consumption as the light driven coral growth. I am quite sure about that.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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It may well be true (but why are you sure photosynthesis is the sole cause?), but I'd like to see the full reverse effect, not just steady pH. Higher at night by about the same amount folks see during the day, say 0.1 to 0.3 pH units. :)
 

CoralNerd

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I know my tank for sure uses less alkalinity at night. My ph is always sky high with my c02 scrubber and Kessil refugium light. When I test in the morning the alk is lower compared to the afternoon test.
Heck sorry I wrote that wrong, my test show lower alk in the afternoon.
 

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