B-Ionic dosing is not balanced

Steve Ruddy

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I have been using B-Ionic ever since it was introduced. I always add equal parts. When one of my levels starts to get out of balance I just add one of the parts to bring it back. It's usually the Calcium that starts to fall. For the last 4 months or so I'm having to dose 35% more calcium part 2 than part 1. At the same time my tank is crashing. My tests are showing the results are remaining in my target zone which is 140-145 ml for Alkalinity and 420-425 ppm for Calcium. Test kits are good and doser is working properly.
 
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Steve Ruddy

Steve Ruddy

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I have always used regular IO but for this tank however I had some IO Reef Crystals that I used. After set up two years ago I have used less then one half of a bucket of IO Reef Crystals. Do you think a half a bucket of RC on the 70 gallon tank over a period of two years is enough to knock it out of whack? The imbalanced additions of B-Ionic have been going on for about 4 months now. I don't do many water changes. Since the crash (see thread) I purchased one bucket each of Brightwell Aquatics and Red Sea Coral Pro. The Brightwell seems closest to my maintained parameters but also seems to b a less pure product than the RSCP. It gets hot when mixing as well. After I get my situation fixed I'l most likely go back to IO. Been using it since 1989 so not sure why I changed. One other thing I did which was out of the ordinary for me was to add a magnesium supplement. I never used to test or worry about mag but for this tank I did and added Seachem Reef Advantage magnesium. That probably was a bad idea. I think I should have used ESV's magnesium supplement.
 
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Steve Ruddy

Steve Ruddy

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Where does the Mg test come in at?

Curretly it's 1365. I only added the Reef Advantage twice once in Feb, and once in March 2016.

mag.JPG
 

dnyceli

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With salts there is not one that is better than another. Just test freshly mixed saltwater parameters and choose the one that is closest too where you normally keep your reef. Yes, some salts don't always mix consistent, so that is the reason we do smaller weekly water changes so if by chance it is off it will not be such a drastic shock if we only change out a small portion. I switched salts once and had a very bad experience with a particular salt brand. I had bought 2 boxes of Kent salt because it was very cheap on sale and I was having my Ca and Kh swing and couldn't hold it stable even with dosing. prior too that I was using Reef Crystals. I had since switched too Fritz because it matches the parameters i keep and they are very stringent on texting their salt batches. I have text new mixed saltwater and they are very consistent. Also a very fast disolving and clean salt. I have found out it is much better too mix salt with the water cold until fully disolved befor bring the water up too temperature. This technic greatly reduces the chances of percipitation, so the parameters should be on point. Also you will not get any film or caking from doing it like this.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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No matter what the magnesium level, it shouldn't cause an imbalanced demand for calcium and alkalinity.

Normal IO has excessive in alk over calcium, so using it would cause more apparent demand for calcium.
Reef crystals is a lot closer to balance, but still may be slightly imbalanced.

It is possible you got a bad batch of B-ionic, but I suspect it more likely it is caused by the salt mix not exactly matching the tank.

You are not dosing nitrate are you? That will boost alk and potentially imbalance the demand.
 
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Steve Ruddy

Steve Ruddy

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No matter what the magnesium level, it shouldn't cause an imbalanced demand for calcium and alkalinity.

Normal IO has excessive in alk over calcium, so using it would cause more apparent demand for calcium.
Reef crystals is a lot closer to balance, but still may be slightly imbalanced.

It is possible you got a bad batch of B-ionic, but I suspect it more likely it is caused by the salt mix not exactly matching the tank.

You are not dosing nitrate are you? That will boost alk and potentially imbalance the demand.

No dosing of nitrate, and what ever salt I use I always make sure to test my tank before and after the water change. I then immediately adjust if needed. Normally I only do 2.5 gallon water changes on my 70 gallon tank about every 4-8 weeks. I suspected a bad batch of B-Ionic as well and tried some from a different order but same results. Doesn't mean it wasn't bad as well. I have ordered yet a third batch and will swap out. I wish I knew how to test the B-Ionic. I emailed Bob Stark at ESV and told him about the issue weeks ago. No Reply.
 

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How this imbalance happened? Slow in this 4 months period or fast in few week/s? And how it happened- which part you were forced to increase or decrease and which remain stable? Did you check alkalinity part for crystallization? (it happened quite often in this cold season - Triton Core7 -is tend to do the same).
 
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Steve Ruddy

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Slow over a period of 3-6 months. I'm having to dose 35% more calcium part 2 than alkalinity part 1. Used two different batches. Once B-Ionic is mixed to full strength it won't re crystallize.
 

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Try dosing in balanced amounts and not dosing the extra calcium. Your level might not drop much, take in mind that there are other elements in bionic and adding more of one part may make your other elements unbalanced. I had the same thing happen when dosing bionic and just lowered the calcium dose which just happened to Ballance out at a lower but good number.
 
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Steve Ruddy

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Try dosing in balanced amounts and not dosing the extra calcium. Your level might not drop much, take in mind that there are other elements in bionic and adding more of one part may make your other elements unbalanced. I had the same thing happen when dosing bionic and just lowered the calcium dose which just happened to Ballance out at a lower but good number.

What are your numbers, and what have they settled too. Also what brand salt and what do you use to get it to match those numbers.

Unless I'm interpreting the results wrong, According to Reef Chemistry Calculator, ESV B-Ionic is not a balanced additive. I'm getting ready to do a test of the product added in equal amounts to 1 cup of pure water samples. To come up with an amount of B-Ionic to add to 1 cup of purified water I visited RCC and chose a water volume of 1 gallon and current levels of zero for the staring point. Ending points are 416 ppm Ca and 140 ppm Alk According the RCC these are balanced levels. RCC returned these results - add 3.5ml B-Ionic part 1 and add 26ml B-Ionic part 2. I would consider a balanced supplement to need equal parts to be added to a pure water sample. Visiting ESV's website I have found no specifications on the product as to what type of balance the formula should deliver. I will post my test results later today. Here is a screen shot. FWIW my target values are always 150/420. I have found B-Ionic Ca to drop way below 380 which I would consider the lowest suitable level.

rcc.JPG
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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A balanced additive does not add calcium and alkalinity in the ratio present in seawater, but in the ratio consumed by corals. B-ionic and other two parts strive to do that.

The calculator shows an approximate balance for B-ionic.
 

Graffiti Spot

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A balanced additive does not add calcium and alkalinity in the ratio present in seawater, but in the ratio consumed by corals. B-ionic and other two parts strive to do that.

The calculator shows an approximate balance for B-ionic.
Thanks Randy.

Op, I remember I kept my calcium around 420 and had to dose less of it to equal my alk dosage. It then dropped to around 380. After a few months levels had to be brought up and everything was back to normal consumption wise. But every tanks different, I am just sharing my experience. I used io salt back then but I don't see how a salt would lower one level over time. Especially when dosing two part.
 
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Steve Ruddy

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A balanced additive does not add calcium and alkalinity in the ratio present in seawater, but in the ratio consumed by corals. B-ionic and other two parts strive to do that.

The calculator shows an approximate balance for B-ionic.

Thanks Randy, I sure would like to see that data to see what type of levels these supplements are designed to maintain. I will have results soon as to what they provide on a pure water sample.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Thanks Randy, I sure would like to see that data to see what type of levels these supplements are designed to maintain. I will have results soon as to what they provide on a pure water sample.

Two parts provide about 18-20 ppm calcium for each 1 meq/L (2.8 dKH) of alkalinity. Calcium carbonate is 20 ppm per 1 meq/L, but some magnesium gets into the structure in place of calcium, so the calcium demand is a tad lower. They also need to provide things like potassium, sulfate, chloride, bromide, etc. at a specific ratio, not because any of those are necessarily consumed, but to maintain them when there is no demand.

I discuss such issues in detail here:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

from it:

Calculation Rationale for the Recipes

The calculation rationale that follows is for Recipe #1. The rationale for Recipe #2 is the same, except that everything is divided by 2 and baking the baking soda is not required. This section is provided for those who want to know how the recipe is devised, who are concerned that there might be an error or who might want to change it slightly. It is not necessary to read the following section if all you want to do is use it.

website, it has a bulk density of 0.82 - 0.96 g/dry mL or 194 - 227 grams/level measuring cup. We will assume that it is 78.5% calcium chloride by weight and weighs 200 grams per level measuring cup. Because calcium comprises 36% of calcium chloride, by weight, each cup contains 200 x 0.785 x 0.36 = 56.5 grams of calcium.

Consequently, dissolving 2 ½ cups (500 g) of Dowflake per gallon = 141 grams of calcium per gallon, or 37,300 mg/L. The final concentration will vary with how much moisture was actually in the calcium chloride, and how well it packed in your measuring cup. A concentration of 37,300 ppm calcium is equivalent to 0.93 molar.

When calcification takes place, two moles of alkalinity are lost for every one mole of calcium. So, we need to match the calcium above with 1.86 molar baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) equivalents (before or after baking, the baking doesn't change the alkalinity). As I measure it, Arm & Hammer baking soda weighs about 264 grams per level measuring cup. Because sodium bicarbonate has a molecular weight of 84 g/mole, we need to dissolve 1.86 x 84 = 156 grams/L, or about 594 grams (2 ¼ level measuring cups) of baking soda per gallon. Note that it doesn't matter how many grams the 594 grams of baking soda becomes after baking. All baking does is change the amount of carbon dioxide and water in the baking soda:

2 NaHCO3 à Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2

More, or less, baking will only alter the pH increase upon addition to the aquarium. However, substantial under-baking may make it impossible to fully dissolve the solid material in the recipe, as sodium bicarbonate is less soluble than sodium carbonate (which is why Recipe #2 is more dilute). Overbaking with respect to time or temperature has no negative effect.

potassium present as an impurity in the Dowflake works to our advantage in this use. Recipe #1 has 1,342 ppm potassium in its calcium part. That amount puts it in the right ratio relative to other ions in the recipe (chloride, sodium, etc.) so that it is neither boosted nor depleted significantly over time based on salinity changes (see modeling below).

Residue Remaining from Recipe #1 when using Recipe #1, Part 3A

After one year of adding 8 ppm of calcium and the accompanying 0.4 meq/L (1.1 dKH) of alkalinity per day (41 mL of both parts per day or 4 gallons of both parts per year in a 50-gallon aquarium, including the effect of the magnesium part #3A, 2440 mL/year), the following residue (Table 2) would remain after calcification and adjustment for salinity (there is roughly a 32% rise in salinity over a year using this addition rate without water changes).

Note that in this recipe, all of the ions match NSW fairly closely (green), but without using Part 3A, the magnesium and sulfate are severely depleted (red).

Residue Remaining from Recipe #1 when using Recipe #1, Part 3B

After one year of adding 8 ppm of calcium and the accompanying 0.4 meq/L (1.1 dKH) of alkalinity per day (41 mL of both parts per day or 4 gallons of both parts per year in a 50-gallon aquarium, including the effect of the magnesium sulfate solution, 2440 mL/year), the following residue (Table 3) would remain after calcification and adjustment for salinity (there is roughly a 29% rise in salinity over a year using this addition rate without water changes):

Note that in this recipe, all of the ions except sulfate (red) match NSW fairly closely (green), but without using Part 3A, magnesium and sulfate are severely depleted (red).

In a previous article discussing water changes, I showed how the rise in sulfate shown in Table 2 is mitigated to some extent by water changes. Those data are reproduced in Figure 5 below, which shows the effect of daily water changes amounting to 7.5%, 15% and 30% on a monthly basis. Clearly, the 15% and 30% changes per month mitigate the rise in sulfate over a year by a substantial amount (reducing the increase by 54% and 74%, respectively).
 
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