Best salt mixes

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since I'm kind of new to all of this (my 65 gallon tank reached 6 months today) I have a question to ask. Is there any reason why Tropic Marin Bio-Actif (salt I've been using) is not used by experienced reefers?

I'm sure some do, but I do not recommend salt mixes with organic matter in them since that organic matter will begin to be consumed by bacteria in the mixing barrel, and if not used soon, will have less or no benefit (if it ever did).

Further, mixes with organics in them likely need to be kept aerated to prevent them from becoming stagnant and producing hydrogen sulfide

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Someone else mentioned fish breeding, you said:
How urchin embryos react it it doesn't change that fact.

That touches on breeding as well as it goes alongside organism development. The tangents are parallel.

If you want evidence to contemplate, you seem intelligent enough to type in a few words on a search engine. If you do have issues finding data, then by all means explain that you're not good at finding data and I'll help.
Here's some queries to get started.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=lithium+affect+development+fish
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=lithium+affect+development+urchin
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=lithium+cellular+development
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=marine+larvae+cellular+lithium
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=fish+larvae+lithium

As you can see from various content within those queries, there is not ZERO interaction between lithium and organisms developing. Does that mean EVERYTHING is negatively affected by lithium? Of course not. You can even see the one research article that finds ZERO interaction on the development of a single species of fish. But if we only pay attention to what is learned through those articles, the numbers are in favor of negative effects. How many is affected and what the levels are, are in question. That ties into this subject because someone asks about "best salt mixes".

As far as this comment:
there is nothing to suggest past failed attempts have had anything to do with synthetic salt mixes.

Prove it. I'm not aware of any research that's looked into Tangs and lithium, but we certainly can't rule it for interaction. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Why? Because there's many things that go into breeding and the development of the organism.

What I'm talking about, is that the facts point towards interactions and many go far beyond simple statements such as some we've seen here saying, "there's nothing to worry about". Even in your reference to companies tricking people into dosing molyb and strontium. Uhh, you realize strontium is inherently in aragonite? There's even been research into the causality for doing so. Even one article considered the incorporation of strontium into the crystalline matrix as a launchpad for bio-composite substances. (look for the strontium thread, I was told there's no evidence to suggest that either, and then I stumbled across a group of phd's that were basically studying the tangents I thought was theoretical)

We know so little, don't assume so much.

Sorry, but in my opinion this is another example of a post with broad claims but no supporting evidence. When you say there is evidence, pointing people to google is not helpful, and leads most people to believe there is no evidence.

There is no scientific evidence that I have seen that lithium at the levels in most salt mixes is a problem for organisms we keep, and no evidence that strontium is helpful to a reef aquarium when maintained at NSW levels as opposed to simply ignored by reefers.

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
Really? Seems not to be true except in billiard ball physics.. When calcium carbonate precipitates from seawater, what is the equal and opposite reaction?

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Since I'm kind of new to all of this (my 65 gallon tank reached 6 months today) I have a question to ask. Is there any reason why Tropic Marin Bio-Actif (salt I've been using) is not used by experienced reefers?

Been tempted to try it myself. Can't say I've seen many people talk about it.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

@JimWelsh No need for personal attacks.
@hawkinsrgk You too.

If it were up to me, I would delete comments that aren't based on links or even any facts. I think Ike is one of the only ones who has posted anything that might go against the lithium stuff.

The rest of you just like to try and bash me. Why?
Because you interpret the text I write in the ways you feel it sounds.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm tired of crap from random people on the net who don't show any proof of what they're saying, and then they blast me saying things like 'links' or 'the burden of proof is on you!' or dance around the subject only to come back bashing me over and over.

I gave you some links, I gave you some overviews, stop with your unnecessary personal attacks and callous attitudes and go out there and learn some. I would say more, but it's not up to me what the rules are here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@JimWelsh I would say more, but it's not up to me what the rules are here.

The rules allow opinions, and allow posting of supporting data. Please post some data if you feel your opinion is supported by it. I've seen no such data.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Sorry, but in my opinion this is another example of a post with broad claims but no supporting evidence. When you say there is evidence, pointing people to google is not helpful, and leads most people to believe there is no evidence.

There is no scientific evidence that I have seen that lithium at the levels in most salt mixes is a problem for organisms we keep, and no evidence that strontium is helpful to a reef aquarium when maintained at NSW levels as opposed to simply ignored by reefers.

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
Really? Seems not to be true except in billiard ball physics.. When calcium carbonate precipitates from seawater, what is the equal and opposite reaction?

The links to the data is in those posts. Since we're talking about biological interactions, it can be said that most of the reactions seen are much, much smaller than what is seen in the tests that utilize the higher levels. Those levels are pushed to SEE the reactions in a much faster state. You're correct that sometimes the effects go away once levels are reduced, but like you said, you don't have that data either. But to push it off as not possible, that's what I have a problem with. Because then people just parrot others, over and over.

The bigger problem I have with this, and/or the strontium tangent, is you say over and over, "I've not seen any data to suggest....."

Well guess what? I just quoted you above, with SOME data, to SUGGEST, that it DOES do something. And you were the source.

And the same holds true for the Strontium. You need me to dig up that link? You didn't even comment on it then iirc. Why? Because previous to that link you told me something like, how can you contemplate on something which has no data about it? And then I find that data about it, contemplating the same stuff, that WOULD SUGGEST that corals are preferentially handling strontium to make their skeletal structure stronger!

Over and over we dance around topics, and you ignore the things I bring up. And the same crap attitude is seen by others who respond to me. I try to keep my cool, but I just don't care anymore. I have more words to say to you, but again, it's more fun to see you dance around topics intellectually because you can't dodge the future and the data that will be uncovered, for or against the arguments.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

The rules allow opinions, and allow posting of supporting data. Please post some data if you feel your opinion is supported by it. I've seen no such data.

It's my opinion that you have tunnel vision and don't enjoy contemplating things we don't know.

 

[RobBaglieri]

...lets get back to salt. After reading many posts is seems like many seasoned reefers use IO. I have been using Red Sea Reef Pro since I stopped buying salt water and installed an RO system about a year ago. I have no issues with the salt, the containers, mixing or storing. However, the price seems very high compared to other salts. I was wondering what the groups opinion on this comparison. As far as LI goes, I am going to start dosing LI at 1.21 gigwatts per picoliter and see how it effects my nano sea sparrow.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's my opinion that you have tunnel vision and don't enjoy contemplating things we don't know.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The links to the data is in those posts. Since we're talking about biological interactions, it can be said that most of the reactions seen are much, much smaller than what is seen in the tests that utilize the higher levels. Those levels are pushed to SEE the reactions in a much faster state. You're correct that sometimes the effects go away once levels are reduced, but like you said, you don't have that data either. But to push it off as not possible, that's what I have a problem with. Because then people just parrot others, over and over.

The bigger problem I have with this, and/or the strontium tangent, is you say over and over, "I've not seen any data to suggest....."

Well guess what? I just quoted you above, with SOME data, to SUGGEST, that it DOES do something. And you were the source.

And the same holds true for the Strontium. You need me to dig up that link? You didn't even comment on it then iirc. Why? Because previous to that link you told me something like, how can you contemplate on something which has no data about it? And then I find that data about it, contemplating the same stuff, that WOULD SUGGEST that corals are preferentially handling strontium to make their skeletal structure stronger!

Over and over we dance around topics, and you ignore the things I bring up. And the same crap attitude is seen by others who respond to me. I try to keep my cool, but I just don't care anymore. I have more words to say to you, but again, it's more fun to see you dance around topics intellectually because you can't dodge the future and the data that will be uncovered, for or against the arguments.

I don't ignore anything you or anyone else says in my forum, especially when I think it is incorrect. In fact, I spend an inordinate amount of time correcting for my readers opinions that you post without support. It is an unfortunate fact of life that in order to maintain intellectual rigor in a public forum, such time is needed.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I don't ignore anything you or anyone else says in my forum, especially when I think it is incorrect. In fact, I spend an inordinate amount of time correcting for my readers opinions that you post without support. It is an unfortunate fact of life that in order to maintain intellectual rigor in a public forum, such time is needed.

I believe you're saying you "correct" me on what?
Things you don't have any proof of either?
Even though in this instance you posted a fellow reefer saw anecdotal evidence to SUGGEST otherwise?

Oh, and equal and opposite reactions can be seen in chemistry off the very basis of solution and dissolutions.

I try to stay respectful in so many ways, but you don't tell anyone else to back off when they "flame" me with THEIR opinionated tidbits. That's not fair.
At this point I'm going to bid you good day, PM me if you come up with any facts to prove your tangent.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I believe you're saying you "correct" me on what?
Things you don't have any proof of either?
Even though in this instance you posted a fellow reefer saw anecdotal evidence to SUGGEST otherwise?
.

I have no idea what topic you are even talking about now. I generally supply evidence for things I say, with the exception of things which fall under the category of generally accepted chemistry which is taught in schools.

If you can show that I have EVER claimed something to be true which does not fit one of these two categories, I will happily explain it further with the needed evidence, clarify that it is an opinion, or retract the statement.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

...lets get back to salt. After reading many posts is seems like many seasoned reefers use IO. I have been using Red Sea Reef Pro since I stopped buying salt water and installed an RO system about a year ago. I have no issues with the salt, the containers, mixing or storing. However, the price seems very high compared to other salts. I was wondering what the groups opinion on this comparison. As far as LI goes, I am going to start dosing LI at 1.21 gigwatts per picoliter and see how it effects my nano sea sparrow.

I expect that if you dealt with issues relating to the different basic water parameters, such as calcium and alk levels, you probably wouldn't notice a difference between these two salt mixes.

 

[RobBaglieri]

My Sea Sparrow thanks you Randy. My only experience with IO was in the mid 90s in college. It was awful to get it to dissolve. My guess is they have made improvements since then. I think I will pick some up and try it out. I have no issue testing and dosing so I may try the less expensive salt.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My Sea Sparrow thanks you Randy. My only experience with IO was in the mid 90s in college. It was awful to get it to dissolve. My guess is they have made improvements since then. I think I will pick some up and try it out. I have no issue testing and dosing so I may try the less expensive salt.

You're welcome.

If you try it, let us know if you see any effects, positive or negative.

 

[jason2459]

blah blah blah is all I've read so far....

Ok back to some hardish numbers on Li in saltmixes.

Here's what I've gathered so far via Triton Results

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/saltmix-parameters-bring-on-the-test-results.233233/

 

[ElectricMusic]

I use TMPro salt when making up new salt water. Then I use Triton ICP Testing. If adjustments are needed, I will dose per the recommendations from the Triton tests. This may include dosing individual elements or reducing high levels using Triton Pure salt. But, once everything is balanced, all I dose is the Triton Elementz (4 channels on my doser). Then, water changes using the typical commercial salts are few and far between for me...

 

[Ike]

I have no idea what topic you are even talking about now. I generally supply evidence for things I say, with the exception of things which fall under the category of generally accepted chemistry which is taught in schools.

If you can show that I have EVER claimed something to be true which does not fit one of these two categories, I will happily explain it further with the needed evidence, clarify that it is an opinion, or retract the statement.

And I'll be right there to support you with any additional evidence/data needed! www.google.com

 

[Sharvey103]

No salt is perfect. You find one you like and adapt as necessary. I personally switched from IO to Red Sea Coral Pro years ago and have learned to adapt to using this mix and am very happy with the results.

 

[that Reef Guy]

No salt is perfect. You find one you like and adapt as necessary. I personally switched from IO to Red Sea Coral Pro years ago and have learned to adapt to using this mix and am very happy with the results.

+1

Well Said.