Dead quarantine
- Thread starter mrmole83
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@ryecoon The only "parasites" you will see are worms (namely, gill flukes), and the fish needs to be in a 5 min FW dip before those will drop off (see below). Any black bucket/plastic container works for this purpose. I stole one of my wife's seed trays to use on smaller fish.
Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.
How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.
Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.
For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.
Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.
Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.
Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.
How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.
Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.
For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.
Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.
Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.
My powder tang dropped dead in QT yesterday for no clear reason.
He was grazing very well the night before.
I am having prazipro and cupperamine at once right now.
The yellow tang is showing HLLE.
Any inputs?
It looked to me like it was swing in temperature during night but i am not sure since i have a heater set at 27 celcius.
Pooop powder he was in there for 2.5 weeks already. Almost made it.
He was grazing very well the night before.
I am having prazipro and cupperamine at once right now.
The yellow tang is showing HLLE.
Any inputs?
It looked to me like it was swing in temperature during night but i am not sure since i have a heater set at 27 celcius.
Pooop powder he was in there for 2.5 weeks already. Almost made it.
Many people (including myself) do it without issue, but I advocate not mixing meds unless I see that the situation demands it. When you first start learning how to QT, you want to keep things simple and as straightforward as possible. Some downsides to mixing medications include:
- Increased appetite suppression on the fish.
- Decreased available oxygen in the water. You must add an airstone or powerhead pointed towards the surface of the water to compensate.
- The potential for a bacterial bloom increases, which can starve all oxygen out of the water. This scenario can kill most or all of your fish, and mixing Prazipro with other meds carries the greatest risk due to oxybispropanol found therein.
I really think this entire board needs to have a talk about prophylactic treatment of fish diseases in quarantine.
I know I'm pretty new here, but the way this board treats copper and other highly toxic medications is really kind of worrying.
It is as if you adopted a puppy and said, "You know what, he might have cancer so maybe I should go ahead and treat him with 30 days of chemo at maximum dosage just to make sure." It's madness, really.
I know I'm pretty new here, but the way this board treats copper and other highly toxic medications is really kind of worrying.
It is as if you adopted a puppy and said, "You know what, he might have cancer so maybe I should go ahead and treat him with 30 days of chemo at maximum dosage just to make sure." It's madness, really.
@Plyr58 I feel I advocate for tank transfer method quite strongly: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/
But many of our members have busy lives and not the time for something like that. Also, we have many disease threads where velvet seems to be the culprit - and for that, only copper or Chloroquine phosphate are suitable treatments.
But many of our members have busy lives and not the time for something like that. Also, we have many disease threads where velvet seems to be the culprit - and for that, only copper or Chloroquine phosphate are suitable treatments.
It's more like, its a puppy and probably has worms, so let's deworm it, which is common practice. Or let's give it heartworm prevention to prevent heartworm disease (which can have negative effects if overdosed).
And chemo won't prevent cancer, but prophylactic treatment in quarantine with copper can prevent disease in your display.
The prophylactic use of medications in ornamental fish, reduces the risk to the livestock already existing in your tank, and this board promotes the proper methods to do so. Tank transfer is also advocate above medication use. But some, such as myself, can't do utilize that method.
If you don't agree, you don't have to do it. But to criticize the entire board is a bit much
My 0.02
Greenstreet.1
5000 Club Member
Prevention is better than cure
melypr1985
totally addicted
I agree that we try to promote TTM as much as possible. Velvet has been a popular trend lately so, yeah you'll see alot of mention of copper. Is it better to lose one fish that is sensitive to copper than to lose your entire stock because you didn't want to use copper prophylacticaly (Yes I know that's spelled wrong lol)? I've done both methods with great results and if I can get somebody to QT at all, it doesn't matter to me which method they use.
@Humblefish Maybe I was a bit harsh, and I'm certainly not accusing anyone of anything untoward, but there are other methods a treating most parasites than copper (you correctly point out that velvet is a special case).
We have known for quite some time that OST is an effective treatment for ciliated parasites. A number of excellent studies and articles have made that point, particlularly Lowry and Colorni. I would suggest that hyposalinity is no more time consuming or labor intensive than treating with copper and is certainly immensely less stressful to the fish. When coupled with adequate oxygenation and raised tank temperatures there is even some emerging evidence that hyposalinity may be effective faster than copper treatment. I would respectfully suggest that hyposalinity would be a more appropriate prophylactic treatment for ich with copper treatment being necessary only in cases where hyposalinity proves ineffective.
As an example, in one study elevated copper levels were found to cause acute mortality in flame angelfish and significantly reduce the reproductive performance of orchid dottyback broodstock (Callan). Quoting from a study conducted by the US Department of the Interior, "Copper is among the most toxic of the heavy metals in freshwater and marine biota (Schroeder et al. 1966; Betzer and Yevich 1975). I could go on and on.
Again, I'm not attacking anyone here and my post wasn't meant as such. I'm simply suggesting that we talk about efficacy of other options particularly when treating for ich. We won't always be able to avoid using copper, and I have had to use it many times in the past, but I'm simply suggesting that we can save a lot of aggravation, a lot a fish, and a TON of money for everyone involved if we think about other options.
We have known for quite some time that OST is an effective treatment for ciliated parasites. A number of excellent studies and articles have made that point, particlularly Lowry and Colorni. I would suggest that hyposalinity is no more time consuming or labor intensive than treating with copper and is certainly immensely less stressful to the fish. When coupled with adequate oxygenation and raised tank temperatures there is even some emerging evidence that hyposalinity may be effective faster than copper treatment. I would respectfully suggest that hyposalinity would be a more appropriate prophylactic treatment for ich with copper treatment being necessary only in cases where hyposalinity proves ineffective.
- Lowry, Toby DVM. 2004. "Quarantine of Marine Fish (Teleost) Using Hyposalinity." Advanced Aquarist, November 2004. <http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2004/short.htm>
- Colorni, A. 1985. "Aspects of biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and hyposalinity as a control measure in captive-raised gilt-bead sea bream Sparus aurata. Dis. Aquat. Org. 1: 19-22.
- Colorni, A. 1987. Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and strategies for its control. Aquaculture, Vol. 67(1-2): 236-237.
As an example, in one study elevated copper levels were found to cause acute mortality in flame angelfish and significantly reduce the reproductive performance of orchid dottyback broodstock (Callan). Quoting from a study conducted by the US Department of the Interior, "Copper is among the most toxic of the heavy metals in freshwater and marine biota (Schroeder et al. 1966; Betzer and Yevich 1975). I could go on and on.
- Callan, Chatham Ph.D. 2008. "Breeder's Net: Effects of Copper Exposure on Marine Ornamental Fish Reproduction and Survival." Advanced Aquarist, October 2008. <http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/10/breeder>
- Hall, W. S., S. J. Bushong, L. W. Hall, Jr., M. S. Lenkevich, and A. E. Pinkney. 1988. Monitoring dissolved copper concentrations in Chesapeake Bay, U.S.A. Environmental Monitoring and Assessment 11:33-42
- Eisler, R. 1998. Copper hazards to fish, wildlife, and invertebrates: a synoptic review. U.S. Geological Survey, Biological Resources Division, Biological Science Report USGS/BRD/BSR--1997-0002. 98 pp. available at <http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a347472.pdf>
Again, I'm not attacking anyone here and my post wasn't meant as such. I'm simply suggesting that we talk about efficacy of other options particularly when treating for ich. We won't always be able to avoid using copper, and I have had to use it many times in the past, but I'm simply suggesting that we can save a lot of aggravation, a lot a fish, and a TON of money for everyone involved if we think about other options.
@Greenstreet.1 I totally agree that prevention is key. However, we can prevent war through diplomacy or by nuking every other nation on earth. Just like war there are options at our disposal.
I'm simply suggesting let's talk about other options and not necessarily always jump to the most intrusive method.
I'm simply suggesting let's talk about other options and not necessarily always jump to the most intrusive method.
Anyway, I didn't mean to derail this thread. @mrmole83 I would suggest that if you are treating for multiple diseases you begin with the most deadly and work backwards unless your fish is showing some sign of a disease/fungus/paracite, then treat for the most dangerous visible problem first and work backwards.
Greenstreet.1
5000 Club Member
I'm a wrasse lover so my first choice is always prazi and that usually works for me but if I see ich I go to copper. I do start off slow it takes me about four days to reach max dose. I don't have time for TTM cause of my work but I do understand where you are coming from.
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