diy amino acid

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm familiar with Selcon as a food additive, but what's the theory with dosing it to the tank water?

From what I can tell, it's fatty acids + vitamins. Seems like more of a carbon source, but not sure what the breakdown path of fatty acids in the water column would be.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=coral+uptake+"fatty+acid"

There are some goodies in there, but I'm out of reading time for tonight. Will take a look tomorrow.

Zzzz.

Selcon likely stays as particulate organic matter and may be taken up in that fashion.

 

[mcarroll]

Oil vs water makes oil droplets, eh? Interesting.

Thinking of it that way, it seems like it might float and go down the drain vs swirling around past all the coral mouths in the tank like a "normal" particle. Still interesting.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oil vs water makes oil droplets, eh? Interesting.

Thinking of it that way, it seems like it might float and go down the drain vs swirling around past all the coral mouths in the tank like a "normal" particle. Still interesting.

Many people report corals extending polyps when it is added.

 

[mcarroll]

I fully agree with the end product being nitrate

I don't doubt that the microbial food web would reduce any unused organics down to nitrates, and some eventually to di-nitrogen, but corals do seem to uptake aminos directly.

Selcon likely stays as particulate organic matter and may be taken up in that fashion.

Many people report corals extending polyps when it is added.

From what I can gather, fatty acids are particularly known for not being soluble at all in water...and for floating.

Trying to get my head around this.

Ok, there's polyp extension, but....

Is there a theory how these floating, non-water-soluble fatty acids stay in particles and get into the water column and down to the mouth/skin of a coral instead of sticking to the water surface and going down the drain?

Seems to go against the definition of what fatty acids are, certainly against how I'd imagine they'd behave.

Why would Selcon be likely to stay a particulate? (vs coagulating and floating)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Selcon consists of emulsified lipid droplets that, from simple observation, do not especially rapidly rise. The water stays cloudy for a while when using it.

I expect that organisms may grab the droplets and directly take them in for digestion as they do other similarly sized and charged organic matter particles. I don't see any reason to think the fatty acids or related compounds present involved need to dissolve as individual molecules first. That said, I do not know that corals take it up.

 

[bif24701]

I don't doubt that the microbial food web would reduce any unused organics down to nitrates, and some eventually to di-nitrogen, but corals do seem to uptake aminos directly.




From what I can gather, fatty acids are particularly known for not being soluble at all in water...and for floating.

Trying to get my head around this.

Ok, there's polyp extension, but....

Is there a theory how these floating, non-water-soluble fatty acids stay in particles and get into the water column and down to the mouth/skin of a coral instead of sticking to the water surface and going down the drain?

Seems to go against the definition of what fatty acids are, certainly against how I'd imagine they'd behave.

Why would Selcon be likely to stay a particulate? (vs coagulating and floating)

I don't know if you have used Selcon, but when I add it it disperses through the entire water column. However I would never add it directly to the water, lve always soaked my foods in it. I often add Reef chilli to the whole mix to absorb residual. Still the SELCON gets released into the water and spreads through out no problem.

My observations using it lead me to believe that Selcon is mostly water. It never seems to separate either. I am lead to think that it is perfectly water soluble.

Are soaps not created from fatty acids, of course with added Lye. That's would be the extent of my home made soap knowledge.

 

[mcarroll]

I've used AminOmega more, which I think is similar....but I don't think I ever did anything but soak pellets in it, so there was never any real leftover....I kinda made a point of it so there'd be less mess in the tanks.

Soap float too.

 

[bif24701]

Selcon consists of emulsified lipid droplets that, from simple observation, do not especially rapidly rise. The water stays cloudy for a while when using it.

I expect that organisms may grab the droplets and directly take them in for digestion as they do other similarly sized and charged organic matter particles. I don't see any reason to think the fatty acids or related compounds present involved need to dissolve as individual molecules first. That said, I do not know that corals take it up.

That's the real trick isn't. Do corals actually take it up directly.

 

[mcarroll]

All very interesting... @bif24701 you will have to keep us posted on your thoughts and observations while you're using it that way.

 

[bif24701]

All very interesting... @bif24701 you will have to keep us posted on your thoughts and observations while you're using it that way.

I certainly will. From my observations, the feeding response I get, and that my colors have improved seems they can up take it directly.


I will log what I can here for interpretation.

 

[mcarroll]

I still wonder to what end....if it's mostly used as a carbon source, or what? More reading! (More time!)

 

[bif24701]

I still wonder to what end....if it's mostly used as a carbon source, or what? More reading! (More time!)

Yes, this is fun for me. I'm a total nerd

 

[mcarroll]

Much interesting stuff here:

https://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/faculty/reusch/virttxtjml/lipids.htm#fatacid​

Click down to the Soaps and Detergents section to see this:

Very small amounts of these surfactants dissolve in water to give a random dispersion of solute molecules. However, when the concentration is increased an interesting change occurs. The surfactant molecules reversibly assemble into polymolecular aggregates called micelles. By gathering the hydrophobic chains together in the center of the micelle, disruption of the hydrogen bonded structure of liquid water is minimized, and the polar head groups extend into the surrounding water where they participate in hydrogen bonding.

Hope that makes sense...you might have to click back and read the context.

So there's a lot more there, but I only had to read that far to find one possible mechanism....not sure the idea of surfactants in the tank sounds like a good idea....but I imagine lots of things can potentially act as surfactants.

Lots lots more there beyond this tidbit.

 

[Russ265]

so compelling arguments have been made by @mcarroll that i wouldnt dismiss as i think some intelligent conversation is made.

my issue is that a wide range of reef tanks have been observed prior to AA dosing. Almost as consistent with AA feedback.

we were always taught 0 everything and corals lived off fairy dust.

technology caught up, and we were reminded... eh. not so much.

AA failed many reefers. I believe more reefers than not forgo the headache unless there is an issue, which has already been solved by stocking more or dosing photosynthetic ingredients needed for the process to undergo.

in other words....
its not needed for coral health.

i know i am speaking in very hard absolutes, but it is to convey how miniscule AA additives are in respects to an actual hobbiest's tank in this day and age.

good luck

 

[mcarroll]

Here's why a reason why nitrates are superior for the reefer: We can test for them.

There's no good way to know if how much AA you're adding is "enough". So starting tiny and increasing doses incrementally and observing (including nitrate tests) are about it.

It's easy to imagine someone going wrong....it's a little bit like being up the river without a paddle.

 

[Russ265]

Here's why a reason why nitrates are superior for the reefer: We can test for them.

There's no good way to know if how much AA you're adding is "enough". So starting tiny and increasing doses incrementally and observing (including nitrate tests) are about it.

It's easy to imagine someone going wrong....it's a little bit like being up the river without a paddle.

well. i was going a step further.

im not seeing eye seering fluorescence using the product either.

apart from the coral writing me love notes, i have no feedback that it is beneficial.

or... "omg my coral is stning... let me add this magic juice to the cauldron and see if that fixes it"

 

[Russ265]

accidental double post

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's the real trick isn't. Do corals actually take it up directly.

Corals or other organisms such as other filter feeders (e.g., sponges). I have added it directly many times, but I do not know the answer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I still wonder to what end....if it's mostly used as a carbon source, or what? More reading! (More time!)

That is certainly not the intent, but it may happen.

 

[bif24701]

Corals or other organisms such as other filter feeders (e.g., sponges). I have added it directly many times, but I do not know the answer.

I feel safe assuming they do. I believe that polyps on some corals maybe more for increasing surface area for this purpose than for catching prey.