diy amino acid

[Kungpaoshizi]

I think it goes back to the 'indiscriminate feeders' part vs what they actually absorb.
If the consensus is correct about corals taking in strontium and molyb, or various other compounds accidentally, then it begs more investigation as to the tangent of what does the tissue absorb? I know this argument could be supported by the plastic particulate tangent. One major reason I frown upon people suggesting the mr clean magic eraser. It's been found in nature because of all the plastic trash/etc making it's way into the water systems, the corals and other filter feeders DO have plastics in their guts. (and then the microplastics making their way into their cells/tracts/etc)

So even just from a blind-guessing perspective, it's supported that AA's make their way into corals.

I myself though like to think that corals aren't that ignorant of their surroundings, but it very well could be the case. Like insects or fungus, when your sole purpose is to proliferate, and your cellular-mechanics enable an incredible regenerative growth ability, why would the genes need to actually have "smarts"?

 

[McMullen]

This is all extremely interesting! There are also lots of human studies and trials on aminos as well that seem positive, that is suggesting to take specifically aminos, supplements. The problem for me is aminos are in food, just eat quality healthy food. The same is true for a reef tank. I suspect those whom have success with aminos are or were starving their tank, fish, and coral. Therefore your providing a vital nutrient in AA's that your animals are missing. It really is not more complicated than that. Coral will not and cannot uptake more just because you pour it in. Similarly, my muscles and cells cannot increase protein synthesis or any other cellular reactions or processes because I start taking an amino pill; it's only in the presence of a deficiency cells use aminos for chemical reactions.
Oh and yes this is overly simplified but true. All organisms have minimum and maximum.

 

[bif24701]

This is all extremely interesting! There are also lots of human studies and trials on aminos as well that seem positive, that is suggesting to take specifically aminos, supplements. The problem for me is aminos are in food, just eat quality healthy food. The same is true for a reef tank. I suspect those whom have success with aminos are or were starving their tank, fish, and coral. Therefore your providing a vital nutrient in AA's that your animals are missing. It really is not more complicated than that. Coral will not and cannot uptake more just because you pour it in. Similarly, my muscles and cells cannot increase protein synthesis or any other cellular reactions or processes because I start taking an amino pill; it's only in the presence of a deficiency cells use aminos for chemical reactions.
Oh and yes this is overly simplified but true. All organisms have minimum and maximum.

Prepared foods that we buy are lacking. That's why I chose to supplement with AA/vitamins.

 

[McMullen]

I don't doubt what your saying, but which aminos are they lacking?

 

[bif24701]

Certainly I don't know what is lacking nor what is required exactly. I just try to provide as varied and complete a diet as possible.

 

[mcarroll]

I haven't read anything about amino's in humans (ironically enough) so I can't comment there except that I can imagine there will be some parallels.

If we think emulating natural seawater is a valid goal, why wouldn't assuring theq presence of free amino acids be equally valid? We don't have any way to test amino levels for our aquariums at home so it's a moot point, so I guess I'm just saying...


And BTW there's always an assumption of a super-stocked tank...

I have 2 tanks full of large, stony coral colonies and only three little Barnacle Bennies. Because they're pretty tough, I'll give the three of them credit for 3.5 inches of "fish length"...there's no way my fish going to supply enough ammonium and urea for all those corals.

So I dose the dissolved nitrogen components I can: nitrates and amino's.

I'm still working out how much is the correct amount to dose. Watching a nitrate test kit is one way (I'm still at 0 ppm so I haven't really gotten anywhere yet, by this measure), but that doesn't give any insight to amino levels...

 

[McMullen]

The papers listed proving specific coral utilizing a specific amino acid does not justify the marketing and dosing of products. That is my only point. Much has been made of the mighty AA. Aminos are crucial to many life forms both essential and non essential. Again, it makes sense to me if your tank is lacking food then food will benefit coral. Are aminos food? Yes, basically. Again, this is simplified.

Perhaps the positive results some experience dosing AA's isn't from coral uptake and utilization, rather the break down into carbon, nitrogen, etc, etc.

 

[mcarroll]

Speaking for myself, I soundly ignored amino acids based on the silly hype surrounding the results we're supposed to expect. That expectation leads people to go overboard when the hyped results fail to show up. For what it's worth, the scientists didn't mention pop once in that article, yet still convinced me to begin amino acid dosing on a a tiny scale.

I would recommend others generally ignore amino acids on the same basis:

If you're using amino acids to get pop, you need to stop and walk yourself to the fridge instead.

2¢

cc: @cromag08

 

[JBNY]

Nitrate contains energy and corals can utilize it. So the question for me is why chose potassium nitrate over feeding? Maybe down the road long term my filtration can't keep up and phosphate goes through the roof. Then it would be more clear I guess.

Because I found it is hard to feed and raise nitrates enough to maintain decent levels. If you have a well established and efficient reef tank, keeping N level at zero should be extremely easy. About 5 months ago I decided, after dosing KNO3 for over a year, that I would try and just add more fish and feed more to raise nitrate levels rather than dosing. I currently have 67 fish, and am feeding 13 cubes of frozen food, 10 pinches of pellets and 3 cube of cyclopeeze a day. Yet I still am dosing 0.2 ppm of KNO2 daily to maintain 5 ppm of nitrates in my tank.

Also that article shows that corals take in a combination of nitrates, so having some nitrates in the form of NO3 in addition to ammonium is a probably good thing.

 

[McMullen]

It seems the argument is beginning to shift more towards support of nitrate, which makes so much more sense to my brain.

 

[mcarroll]

If you haven't already, take time to digest that biologist.org article mentioned a few times earlier. It's not really an either/or thing between nitrates and amino acids....AA's are (like many many products) a victim of "good marketing" so we need to re-learn on our own.

Ammonium and Nitrates
Ammonium and nitrate are the two most common dissolved nitrogen sources that corals use – so nitrates should make a lot of sense. These make up about 40% each of the dissolved nitrogen intake....about 80%, taken together.

With a full load of fish, your corals should have an amazing supply of ammonium...although there is competition for it. Ammonium appears to be everyone's favorite nitrogen source....corals, green plants, algae...everyone.

Amino Acids
Amino acids make up only about 20%.

While amino acids can be used for energy or disassembled for nitrogen, they are probably also used for some things in their more complicated amino acid forms.

Urea
Urea borders on insignificant at 3% of dissolved nitrogen uptake....but I bet even it's used for something besides just a nitrogen source.

 

[mcarroll]

I think it goes back to the 'indiscriminate feeders' part vs what they actually absorb.

They are not indiscriminate about dissolved nutrients. I think we make a mistake every time we oversimplify like this about a life-form.....particularly when we consider other life forms as "dumb" or unthinking.

The dumb, unthinking ones are all extinct or well on their way toward being so.

Notably, corals and fish are nowhere near extinct.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

If you haven't already, take time to digest that biologist.org article mentioned a few times earlier. It's not really an either/or thing between nitrates and amino acids....AA's are (like many many products) a victim of "good marketing" so we need to re-learn on our own.

Ammonium and Nitrates
Ammonium and nitrate are the two most common dissolved nitrogen sources that corals use – so nitrates should make a lot of sense. These make up about 40% each of the dissolved nitrogen intake....about 80%, taken together.

With a full load of fish, your corals should have an amazing supply of ammonium...although there is competition for it. Ammonium appears to be everyone's favorite nitrogen source....corals, green plants, algae...everyone.

Amino Acids
Amino acids make up only about 20%.

While amino acids can be used for energy or disassembled for nitrogen, they are probably also used for some things in their more complicated amino acid forms.

Urea
Urea borders on insignificant at 3% of dissolved nitrogen uptake....but I bet even it's used for something besides just a nitrogen source.

103%?

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

They are not indiscriminate about dissolved nutrients. I think we make a mistake every time we oversimplify like this about a life-form.....particularly when we consider other life forms as "dumb" or unthinking.

The dumb, unthinking ones are all extinct or well on their way toward being so.

Notably, corals and fish are nowhere near extinct.

Well, some think they might be. I'm on the fence about it, but I would imagine their genes are better than ours.

Though I don't agree with what you say about 'yes amino's are shown to be absorbed, but that doesn't justify the marketing of them' or something along those lines..
I took statements like that to heart, and if I wouldn't have challenged it, I probably wouldn't be in the hobby still. It was statements like that which prevented me from moving forward with and trying the red sea program. Boy was I wrong. It would have saved me 5 years of headaches from the beginning. But I didn't try it, because people on the forum said it wasn't necessary. But compared to all I've tried that "isn't necessary" vs all I've tried that "is necessary", by far the unnecessary stuff does better.

Is that the case with amino's? Perhaps. Should we blame things on marketing? No.
Even real-life snake oil, has it's uses.

Overall though I would bet 90% of tanks out there are deficient in nutrients one way or another. And I do not classify ammonium or nitrate as a nutrient. They're useable but not preferred. I'm referring to actual foods, vitamins, amino's, and various other compounds that are necessary. But we as a society, globally, focus more on Britney Spears than in-depth coral wisdom..

 

[mcarroll]

Is that the case with amino's? Perhaps. Should we blame things on marketing? No.
Even real-life snake oil, has it's uses.

Overall though I would bet 90% of tanks out there are deficient in nutrients one way or another. And I do not classify ammonium or nitrate as a nutrient. They're useable but not preferred. I'm referring to actual foods, vitamins, amino's, and various other compounds that are necessary. But we as a society, globally, focus more on Britney Spears than in-depth coral wisdom..

Hm....

Marketing = blameless.
Snake oil = good.
Nitrates and ammonium ≠ nutrients.
"actual food", vitamins and "other compounds" = nutrients
Britney Spears?

I'm still a @Kungpaoshizi fan, but you lost me on this post....can you explain again?

Corals definitely use ammonium, nitrates, amino acids and urea (in that order of preference) – as well as particulate sources – as "food" or "nutrients" in the wild.

 

[bif24701]

Because I found it is hard to feed and raise nitrates enough to maintain decent levels. If you have a well established and efficient reef tank, keeping N level at zero should be extremely easy. About 5 months ago I decided, after dosing KNO3 for over a year, that I would try and just add more fish and feed more to raise nitrate levels rather than dosing. I currently have 67 fish, and am feeding 13 cubes of frozen food, 10 pinches of pellets and 3 cube of cyclopeeze a day. Yet I still am dosing 0.2 ppm of KNO2 daily to maintain 5 ppm of nitrates in my tank.

Also that article shows that corals take in a combination of nitrates, so having some nitrates in the form of NO3 in addition to ammonium is a probably good thing.

Full disclosure, I also have trouble keeping my nitrates up. I only have two tangs (about to be 4) and a clown. In truth I am considering adding KNO2 to see if I can also benefit. My Nitrates haven't been above.50ppm in almost 4 months. I only dose 2 ml of NOPOX for theoretic reasons, as I feel the extra bacteria help feed my micro fauna and sponges (another discussion). So I'm not questioning your usage or your decision to do so. I really want to understand this well so I can decided if this is something I should be doing.

You are feeding a lot, and have lots of fish. Much more than I have, but I also have a low coral load. That clearly indicates that if feeding alone isn't providing all the nitrogen you need then that is a strong case for using KNO2.

Thank you

 

[bif24701]

They are not indiscriminate about dissolved nutrients. I think we make a mistake every time we oversimplify like this about a life-form.....particularly when we consider other life forms as "dumb" or unthinking.

The dumb, unthinking ones are all extinct or well on their way toward being so.

Notably, corals and fish are nowhere near extinct.

No I would not assume they are indiscriminate feeders, I have to believe they have a mechanism aquarium the nutrients they need in the water. Plants have many more times the DNA code that animal have, this allows them to adapt to a wider verity of conditions they live in and to respond to it. I'm sure corals are able to do the same within limits.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Hm....

Marketing = blameless.
Snake oil = good.
Nitrates and ammonium ≠ nutrients.
"actual food", vitamins and "other compounds" = nutrients
Britney Spears?

I'm still a @Kungpaoshizi fan, but you lost me on this post....can you explain again?

Corals definitely use ammonium, nitrates, amino acids and urea (in that order of preference) – as well as particulate sources – as "food" or "nutrients" in the wild.

Lol, an early morning before my coffee does not do justice to my drivel..

I guess when we talk about these kinds of things, we may need to segment more in the cases of, 'what is necessary for the coral' vs 'what is necessary for the zooxanthellae'...
Overall from what I've seen in the hobby for the number of years I've been around, there's a distaste for many things companies are selling us, but I think the distaste arises more from the prices vs what's actually helpful.

The best tanks I've seen have a commonality amongst them that goes against what many of the more experienced reefers consider necessary. And most of those tanks utilize amino's. (alongside GAC, GFO, carbon dosing, and heavier feeding)
I think the hobby has taken a turn in the last few years from the 'I don't feed! Light is all they need!!' mentality.. (which is good don't get me wrong, it just opens up more questions as to WHAT needs to be put in the tank)

I guess I'm just curious as to how we approach it to progress the conversation from 'do they actually do anything' to 'which ones'...

It's times like this I think of Red Sea because they have umpteen tanks running at a time all under different circumstances of methodology. Their marketing is lacking, but how many companies do this vs blind marketing?

 

[dragon99]

I think too many companies (all of them maybe) want to sell us a "system" without specifics. Most serious reefers prefer to know exactly what they are putting into the tank so that we can attribute change to a single factor. I'm comfortable using the Red Sea system because I do trust that they are doing the testing behind the scenes, but I still wish they would go ahead and tell us what's in the bottle. Of course, it's probably like NOPOX (just a mix of vodka/vinegar) that I can mix myself so they have a financial interest in not telling us.

 

[mcarroll]

@bif24701 In your case, I think I'd stop carbon dosing. Theoretical reasons aren't good enough, if you were to ask me. It's a tool for lowering nitrates to dinitrogen faster, not much more than that. Effects beyond that are incidental and at least partly deleterious. (Non-carbon dosed corals are less sensitive...I presume because they are less stressed.)

I guess when we talk about these kinds of things, we may need to segment more in the cases of, 'what is necessary for the coral' vs 'what is necessary for the zooxanthellae'...

What we're finding out is that we can't do that. Much like us, corals are a meta-organism. They are part polyp, part dino, part cyano...plus a host of other critters. These guys cycle nutrients with each other and each has their own way....and the polyp doesn't generally live at all without them....so all the nutrients are probably necessary for the meta-animal at least in some quantity.

I need more time for more reading! As usual it feels like we're having cooler-talk at the tip of the iceberg. Very cool, but we still know just a little bit.