diy amino acid

[McMullen]

@Kungpaoshizi, there is no use for snake oil!

I too have great success with the Red Sea color program. Clearly because my coral are using up "something" in between water changes.

And my problem is the actual marketing of AA, suggesting growth and color. There is nothing proprietary about aminos so companies won't list what is in bottle.......complete poopoo! Overpriced poopoo at that!

 

[Russ265]

its funny, a lot of people are saying now what ive said for a while...
aa additions are junk.

anyway. we know all life takes up AA (including your grass). so what better way than to look toward our coral cousins, the plant for how it works.

ive always treated corals more like a plant for a number of reasons. for one, they uptake nitrogen and phosphate - from which i dose. but much like fertilizer burn, you can kill those coral applying too much.
the photosynthesis feeds the coral it's energy from the tiny tiny plants it houses. - not a plant literally, as we know they are dinoflagellates/symbiodinium.

so at the moment we have limited research about corals. or at least not as readily available as a studied "grass" or "plant". maybe reading up on it in this direction will give us a clue to the mechanics of amino acids.

from my basic readings on the subject different nitrates are "preferred" over another. perhaps by limited availability on the type.
some grasses in the arctic region only have amino acids as a nitrogen source to uptake and have adapted to live off that. given the preference though, they will absorb inorganic nitrogen first. (much like a coral)

ive made this post a bit longer than i wanted, but here is a fun article on the subject matter.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ion_to_soil_acidity_and_nitrogen_availability

keep in mind. im not advocating throwing miracle grow in your tank. im just stating the obvious similarities and mechanics are in principle the same.

food for thought anyway (pun intended)

 

[McMullen]

Miracle grow, the next KZ (and others) big push

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I think too many companies (all of them maybe) want to sell us a "system" without specifics. Most serious reefers prefer to know exactly what they are putting into the tank so that we can attribute change to a single factor. I'm comfortable using the Red Sea system because I do trust that they are doing the testing behind the scenes, but I still wish they would go ahead and tell us what's in the bottle. Of course, it's probably like NOPOX (just a mix of vodka/vinegar) that I can mix myself so they have a financial interest in not telling us.

As much as I want to agree with you on the nopox detail, I feel people are missing a bit of info from it. Methanol itself has quite the biological activities having to do with carbon dosing. It's used by itself with some wastewater treatment plants. Scores of bacteria, fungus, yeast, and probably other organisms utilize it. Is it better than ethanol or acetic acid? That has yet to be identified, but it could explain why people have such great results.

In the generalization over the last few years since the ICP test was done (again, a low-res test done by a student) a lot has been "determined" from this one test, and not all the ingredients are even considered because a select few don't believe it's necessary to look into. The more I looked into methanol the more I saw it's a valid carbon source, but above all else, it's a DIFFERENT carbon source with it's own tangent of utilization. That's even before looking into the effects of interaction with isopropyl.

That's a lot of unanswered questions that I don't believe is justified by just saying nopox is acetate/ethanol. (just had to add that if we're looking at ingredients and attributing changes to a single factor; that's at least 2 uninvestigated factors)

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

@bif24701 Non-carbon dosed corals are less sensitive...I presume because they are less stressed.

What we're finding out is that we can't do that. Much like us, corals are a meta-organism. They are part polyp, part dino, part cyano...plus a host of other critters. These guys cycle nutrients with each other and each has their own way....and the polyp doesn't generally live at all without them....so all the nutrients are probably necessary for the meta-animal at least in some quantity.

I need more time for more reading! As usual it feels like we're having cooler-talk at the tip of the iceberg. Very cool, but we still know just a little bit.

Got any data to back that first statement up?

But just as corals are a multi-faceted organism, just as many other lifeforms are, is it not true that the coral can live without the algae? Is it not true the algae can live without the coral?


So the question remains, if they can live without each other, not just under times of survival or stress, could they not benefit from extra "foods" that it might not necessarily need, but just that, benefit from?

Just as the body does not make all of the necessary amino acids to survive, I guess it would be advantageous to ask, what amino's do corals or their symbiodinium NOT make, that is necessary? Though it's shown corals do utilize them, I think it's far-fetched to say AA dosing doesn't do anything. I would wager there's some they don't need, but just as there are essential amino acids for just about every organism, the probability is not in favor of 'aa's are junk'.

 

[mcarroll]

In case it's not clear, I am dosing amino acids....but at a very small rate.

Almost everything I know on this subject came from the articles linked in this thread....and they do supply data to back up their stuff, but I can't cite it off the top of my head.

The only thing I claim AA's won't do is what is claimed in marketing...

In particular, "pop" is a useless marketing term that has gone viral.

I, you, and everyone else should disregard every post or product promotion that has the word "pop" in it.

If you were talking about the carbon dosing statement, try carbon dosing a tank and then raise the alkalinity up to about 8 or 9 dKH. Most people seem to get (or are under the impression they will get) burt tips on their stony corals in this circumstance. This is a sensitivity that normal, healthy corals in a non-carbon-dosed tank do not have. It is not a sign of being "extra healthy" and it isn't a problem with "high alkalinity" as some folks have projected. I haven't found a conclusive scientific study exactly related, but lots of interesting papers that are semi-related. Fast growing corals are less capable of healing, for example. Sugars (a carbon source) dissolved in seawater, in general, cause stress, bleaching and mortality. Just two highlights...I don't have the links handy, unfortunately. I'd say vinegar is the least dangerous way to dose carbon....I would not say that it is safe per se. It resolves nitrate accumulations at the expense of some coral stress.

 

[Russ265]

Got any data to back that first statement up?

But just as corals are a multi-faceted organism, just as many other lifeforms are, is it not true that the coral can live without the algae? Is it not true the algae can live without the coral?


So the question remains, if they can live without each other, not just under times of survival or stress, could they not benefit from extra "foods" that it might not necessarily need, but just that, benefit from?

Just as the body does not make all of the necessary amino acids to survive, I guess it would be advantageous to ask, what amino's do corals or their symbiodinium NOT make, that is necessary? Though it's shown corals do utilize them, I think it's far-fetched to say AA dosing doesn't do anything. I would wager there's some they don't need, but just as there are essential amino acids for just about every organism, the probability is not in favor of 'aa's are junk'.

the problem is that your tank isnt 100% pure ro/di sea water.
whatever aa you are dosing was probably already supplemented via the natural process.

reef tanks have thrived and looked spectacular without aa for several decades.

they will continue to do so.

 

[dragon99]

Seriously though. Just saying because corals tanks were successful before AA products came about doesn't mean they aren't beneficial and providing something that was missing before. We can't stop trying new methods just because something worked 10 years ago.

 

[mcarroll]

reef tanks have thrived and looked spectacular without aa for several decades.

they will continue to do so.

No doubt...even my own system in the past. I'm willing to bet if I could go back to managing the tank the same way that it would work just as well now.

But truth be told, I'm only interested in my system, right now.

I'm not gonna repeat the whole context unless asked, but AA's + nitrates makes sense according to my circumstance and what I know so far about dissolved nutrient uptake in at least one of the major corals I actually grow.

The experiment is underway to see if this pans out in a positive way though. And I'm not preaching anything in particular outside of those articles themselves. Well maybe I've preached zero-nutrients-is-bad a little bit too. I have an idea what I expect from this experiment, but I don't understand at all what most people (based on marketing or buzzwords) seem to expect from theirs.

I supposed it's noteworthy that even Red Sea claims nothing more than growth and color....which are natural attributes of corals which aren't on the verge of death. I really don't understand anyone who's wrapped up with the concept of "pop" (sometimes called "that pop") where sugary beverages aren't the object.

 

[Russ265]

Seriously though. Just saying because corals tanks were successful before AA products came about doesn't mean they aren't beneficial and providing something that was missing before. We can't stop trying new methods just because something worked 10 years ago.

my issue is that AA never provided "pop".

nitrate always did

https://postimg.org/image/ogvspaxfj/

thats my pc rainbow. still months after the challenge they still cant get "pop".

if you want a "pop" challenge you let me know. im tired of schooling everyone in this forum. i will destroy everyone who claims AA gives them any "pop".

 

[watchguy123]

Perhaps I missed something in the references but has anyone placed markers on dfaa to see if they are selectively absorbed. Or perhaps they are more likely broken down to their elements or perhaps simpler compounds

Aren't amino acids just carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen. So I thought this would simply break down to carbon and nitrogen in sea water. Basically carbon dosing with nitrogen.

 

[Russ265]

Perhaps I missed something in the references but has anyone placed markers on dfaa to see if they are selectively absorbed. Or perhaps they are more likely broken down to their elements or perhaps simpler compounds

Aren't amino acids just carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen. So I thought this would simply break down to carbon and nitrogen in sea water. Basically carbon dosing with nitrogen.

bingo...

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I can't say I've seen nitrates fall though when dosing AA's..

@Russ265 May I ask what your feeding routine is? Pretty decent color there, what's your setup for lights as well?

On a side note, I had just as good coloration under phoenix 14k's and actnics, not dosing AA's as well. Though I was running the zeo trio + stones. (don't think there's AA's in the 'coral food' one, might be wrong)

Didn't feed the tank except for some Reef Nutrition from time to time.

 

[Russ265]

I can't say I've seen nitrates fall though when dosing AA's..

@Russ265 May I ask what your feeding routine is? Pretty decent color there, what's your setup for lights as well?

On a side note, I had just as good coloration under phoenix 14k's and actnics, not dosing AA's as well. Though I was running the zeo trio + stones. (don't think there's AA's in the 'coral food' one, might be wrong)

Didn't feed the tank except for some Reef Nutrition from time to time.

sorry been busy at work so didnt get a chance to see this.

my feeding is 2 cubes of mysis in the morning, 2 in the evening.

a pinch of spectrum algaemax whenever i feel like it.

my nitrates and phosphates still dwindle down to 0 without dosing. although stocking more has made my dosing less intense.

ive been stocking this tank for almost 2 years now (off and on)

regal tang, pbt, cbb, melanarus wrasse, foxface.

lost a carpenter wrasse because of jumping and a yellow watchman for some reason.

im thinking 2 radiant wrasses. maybe a sunrise. so hard to pick em sometimes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As much as I want to agree with you on the nopox detail, I feel people are missing a bit of info from it. Methanol itself has quite the biological activities having to do with carbon dosing. It's used by itself with some wastewater treatment plants. Scores of bacteria, fungus, yeast, and probably other organisms utilize it. Is it better than ethanol or acetic acid? That has yet to be identified, but it could explain why people have such great results.

In the generalization over the last few years since the ICP test was done (again, a low-res test done by a student) a lot has been "determined" from this one test, and not all the ingredients are even considered because a select few don't believe it's necessary to look into. The more I looked into methanol the more I saw it's a valid carbon source, but above all else, it's a DIFFERENT carbon source with it's own tangent of utilization. That's even before looking into the effects of interaction with isopropyl.

That's a lot of unanswered questions that I don't believe is justified by just saying nopox is acetate/ethanol. (just had to add that if we're looking at ingredients and attributing changes to a single factor; that's at least 2 uninvestigated factors)

The test for the organic components was not ICP, but NMR. While it was run by a student in a university lab, it was interpreted by a tenured professor who is also a reef hobbyist/chemist, and further, no one who has any training in NMR has any reason to question its interpretation. It is a very clear and simple NMR spectrum.

 

[mcarroll]

i will destroy everyone who claims AA gives them any "pop".

 

[bif24701]

Nitrates 0 ppm, phosphates .03ppm. Corals looking good, seeing weekly growth and improved color. Only adding fish/coral foods with about 1ml daily soaking of SELCON.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

The test for the organic components was not ICP, but NMR. While it was run by a student in a university lab, it was interpreted by a tenured professor who is also a reef hobbyist/chemist, and further, no one who has any training in NMR has any reason to question its interpretation. It is a very clear and simple NMR spectrum.

Meh.. There's always room for interpretation, just as you interpreted it to be ethanol and acetic acid via yours. Though they are very noteworthy and gear the majority of what happens, I think we all agree on that. But the message relayed subject matter that excluded, the addition of at least methanol, and what was believed to be isopropyl perhaps?

Even if the additional contents is a small amount, it still counts. But I guess I stray from the amino acid conversation..

I guess it might be a decent experiment, identical tanks, "identical" frags, feed individual aminos to each..

 

[mike007]

I have had reef tanks for years and through my years i have learned that people are making it way too complicated . Most good salt mixes these days have everything you need. With regulars water changes you should have all the components necessary to maintain a reef. I have fallen in the past on adding all these snake oils which i find do more harm that good. Keep it simple and enjoy your tank.

 

[Russ265]

Nitrates 0 ppm, phosphates .03ppm. Corals looking good, seeing weekly growth and improved color. Only adding fish/coral foods with about 1ml daily soaking of SELCON.

you never surpassed 300 par either judging by these photos.