Going back to halide after 4+ years with LED

[cilyjr]

@mcarroll

1. I like them. Not too blue at all still I wonder how they look compared to a hamilton 14k. A picture online won't really tell the story there.

2. I understand usage will dictate bulb life.

3. I'd bite if I had dual zones with a thermostat in that room... however the ac is controlled only through a single thermostat on the main floor. The way I reduce the hot/cold downstairs is via an old fashioned butterfly flap in the duct going downstairs... the fans and exhaust will use power more that's a guarantee
The biggest deal is trading the heat from the halides for heat from the heaters so now my 3 300w heaters only run after lights out.
I didn't think I would save money by putting them in but I ran halides for a good 7 years previous to the sols and my electric bill did not go down when I switched to led in 2012. I think people in climates that need chillers might see a savings but I did not.

4. I have access to a par meter I use from time to time. Like I said I don't believe in the acclimating coral to lighting thingy. If something looks unhappy I'll move it.

5. Yes. It's why I don't think people are putting enough led fixtures over their tanks. (I think I posted in the sister thread in my local Club forum and not here)I really believe that without t5 supplement one should have 6 of the "puck" style lights for a 6x2x2 tank. Maybe that's changed with the newer models but I doubt it. I've got a friend with a 400g tank with 14 hydras banging away at 100% I think he's got enough light.

6. that cheap bucket was temporary and was made of lldpe so if it filled water would bulge the sides and the lid would pop off and that would let junk fall in. Not to mention it needed the support of the extra rim. The 30g brute will be back in operation this week

 

[120reefkeeper]

Still a halide user myself. Never left them. [emoji4]

 

[Mike220]

Junio running 4 of AI hydra 52 HD on his tank.
His reef tank growth very well and beautiful.

 

[cilyjr]

Junio running 4 of AI hydra 52 HD on his tank.
His reef tank growth very well and beautiful.

I'm sure it is.

I started by saying I'm not trying to be anti led. I prefer the halides and I gave led 4 years to make the conclusion. Maybe there will be an led fixture I will want but not at this time

 

[cilyjr]

Still a halide user myself. Never left them. [emoji4]

I wish I hadn't sold my old equipment it would have saved me money. But hey hindsight!

 

[120reefkeeper]

I wish I hadn't sold my old equipment it would have saved me money. But hey hindsight!

Is what it is..... the ballast these days are much better than the old ones anyway. The only thing that sucks for me is my favorite bulbs are no longer in production. I used to run XM14.5k . Loved them but I'm making due with giesemann 17k. I have a DE fixture so my choices are even more limited. They just don't have that crisp blue like the XM's had.

 

[mcarroll]

But without the heat from the lights my heaters are now working 24 hours a day that's an extra 800 watts banging away.

Literally on and running 24 hours a day? That sounds like a defect. (Or even worse insulation than my place!)

Did you ever track actual heater power usage on a KillAWatt meter or a controller?

You know I'm a huge believer in light meters and power meters! (My corals made a believer out of me on the light meter. That was a tough one.)

I didn't think I would save money by putting them in but I ran halides for a good 7 years previous to the sols and my electric bill did not go down when I switched to led in 2012. I think people in climates that need chillers might see a savings but I did not.

Definitely for the chiller folks cuz some of them hardly ever turn on a heater.

But with three halides vs four AI's, there's a pretty huge difference in expenses and it's not all tied to electricity.

Leaving aside for the moment whether results are equivalent... (We probably agree across-the-board on this.)

Electricity
$253/year for the AI's (actually less since it's sunrise/sunset and only peaks for a short time)
$426/year for the halides

If you say some of that is eaten up by your heaters – I believe it. Some of mine was too...actually had to add more heaters for the deep of winter. LOL

But...

Bulb Costs
A set of new Radiums costs about $252.

If you have to do it twice a year, that's $504.

Actual Yearly Costs
AI: $253
Halides: $678 ($426 + $252)
Halides Twice Yearly: $930 ($426 + $504)

Either halide scenario is pretty dramatic vs $253/year.

That's a net yearly savings in your favor vs the halides of $420 or $670 depending on the replacement cycle.

With those numbers it's just hard to imagine the Sol's really didn't save money against electricity+bulb costs of your halides.

(Partly hard to imagine because your case isn't that unique – I'm in a cold-weather area (too) and in a poorly insulated house and I still managed to save a ton of money by switching. Just not all on the electricity bill. And maybe quicker since I DIY'd and didn't have much in up-front costs....whole fixture built for less than the price of one set of Radiums. But my ongoing costs are low and roughly similar to what you should have experienced.)

I really believe that...one should have 6 of the "puck" style lights for a 6x2x2 tank. Maybe that's changed with the newer models but I doubt it.

Sol's were very narrow, and even unique, with their combo of 70º and 40º lenses. When I was still working at the LFS I was told by our AI vendor that very same guidance on the Sol's and that's the only way I sold them....one per foot of tank.

Almost all commercial fixtures use 90º - 120º lenses now and have boosted power around 20% vs the Sol's. It's still a bit wishful to say they cover 24x24" each (which is the general claim), but they do seem to be getting a little better every 5 or 10 years. One per foot is no longer needed.

At any rate, if the costs aren't a problem, I know you'll love the Radiums while you keep em running!

 

[cilyjr]

Is what it is..... the ballast these days are much better than the old ones anyway. The only thing that sucks for me is my favorite bulbs are no longer in production. I used to run XM14.5k . Loved them but I'm making due with giesemann 17k. I have a DE fixture so my choices are even more limited. They just don't have that crisp blue like the XM's had.

True. I had the same lumatek adjustables I just bought. I had upgraded ballasts not long before I switched to led.
If I had a de fixture I'd run the Phoenix 14k again as they make that in de again. I think a different company picked it up (hexarc) but it's the same bulb. The SE version was my favorite.

 

[120reefkeeper]

True. I had the same lumatek adjustables I just bought. I had upgraded ballasts not long before I switched to led.
If I had a de fixture I'd run the Phoenix 14k again as they make that in de again. I think a different company picked it up (hexarc) but it's the same bulb. The SE version was my favorite.

Thanks for the advice I wasn't aware someone picked up those bulbs.... guess who's getting some Phoenix 14k's!!! [emoji12][emoji12]

 

[cilyjr]

Literally on and running 24 hours a day? That sounds like a defect. (Or even worse insulation than my place!)

Lol to bad insulation.. the attic could use more for certain but the walls as sprayed in.
The heaters arent on 24/7 literally but they cycle from 76.9 to 77 all day. In the graph at the bottom ya can see where it spikes to 78 no heaters then (the fans kick on so there power draw there.

But...

Bulb Costs
A set of new Radiums costs about $252.

If you have to do it twice a year, that's $504.

Actual Yearly Costs
AI: $253
Halides: $678 ($426 + $252)
Halides Twice Yearly: $930 ($426 + $504)

OK here's where I would agree with you (let's say 90%) but...and let's assume I'll change bulbs annually (that or I'll find a new hobby lol)
I had 4 AI (we are adding 84 bucks here for the 4th that's plus 1/3 of your math. You seem like an honest guy so I didn't check it) $337
But now we need to add 108w@8 hrs @$.16 for t5 =$50(rounded) annually bringing us to $387
Both the t5 and extra fixture I feel are necessary for success with the sol (I have no experience with newer lights)

Now we have annual t5 replacement for ease can we agree at 20 bucks a bulb giving us $40
Now we are at $427 to run. This isn't including the start up of $400 buck a fixture totaling $1600 (now more with newer ones $2400) with a new halide at about a grand. Let's divide out the 600 to the last 4 years to $150 this was a big reason I waited 4 years to switch back in stead of after year 2 when I started thinking on it.
Now we are at $577 to run my set up annually

So let's say it costs roughly $100 more annually to run Halides (only about $40 if I use the Hamilton 14k which I may down the line)

So let's assume leds grow coral (and I know that they do) now let's also assume I was more successful when I ran halides (I'm aware I could be doing 1000 things differently now as opposed to then. This is hardly scientific method here). I'm more then happy to pay 40 to 100 more a year ( right around $.25 a day) for that placebo effect.

Now I know from my other thread you are an advocate of building your own lights and it's possibly something I could do as I love diy. So that would completely change all the math. But building a light makes my a little nervous and I believe that lighting is the last place to save money in the reefing hobby when buying new. I mean everything else is pretty much just watertight acrylic tubes right? (That was supposed to be an lol moment)

Ps. I love the functionality of this forum. My local Club needs to think about switching.

 

[cilyjr]

Thanks for the advice I wasn't aware someone picked up those bulbs.... guess who's getting some Phoenix 14k's!!! [emoji12][emoji12]

Cool. Reading your build now...see ya there!

 

[buckroe07]

Is what it is..... the ballast these days are much better than the old ones anyway. The only thing that sucks for me is my favorite bulbs are no longer in production. I used to run XM14.5k . Loved them but I'm making due with giesemann 17k. I have a DE fixture so my choices are even more limited. They just don't have that crisp blue like the XM's had.

I never switched to LED either. I've used MH since starting the hobby approximately 15 years ago so for me, I figured why fix what isn't broken, lol! I have changed MH fixtures of the years though. I too used the same XM bulb mogul base. Now I use DE giesemann 17.k bulbs also! I even use giesemann T5's.

I have 2 other halide/T5 fixtures just collecting dust.

The only LED that managed to convince me that I bought into was the Reef Brite XHO strips that I added for even for supplementation. I can't argue that they make corals look nuclear! I'm almost scared to touch them since their florescence looks radioactive! lol.

 

[cilyjr]

I think when I see people selling ballasts at a deal I might grab them

 

[Frop]

Are you selling the old lighting?

 

[Frop]

Literally on and running 24 hours a day? That sounds like a defect. (Or even worse insulation than my place!)

Did you ever track actual heater power usage on a KillAWatt meter or a controller?

You know I'm a huge believer in light meters and power meters! (My corals made a believer out of me on the light meter. That was a tough one.)



Definitely for the chiller folks cuz some of them hardly ever turn on a heater.

But with three halides vs four AI's, there's a pretty huge difference in expenses and it's not all tied to electricity.

Leaving aside for the moment whether results are equivalent... (We probably agree across-the-board on this.)

Electricity
$253/year for the AI's (actually less since it's sunrise/sunset and only peaks for a short time)
$426/year for the halides

If you say some of that is eaten up by your heaters – I believe it. Some of mine was too...actually had to add more heaters for the deep of winter. LOL

But...

Bulb Costs
A set of new Radiums costs about $252.

If you have to do it twice a year, that's $504.

Actual Yearly Costs
AI: $253
Halides: $678 ($426 + $252)
Halides Twice Yearly: $930 ($426 + $504)

Either halide scenario is pretty dramatic vs $253/year.

That's a net yearly savings in your favor vs the halides of $420 or $670 depending on the replacement cycle.

With those numbers it's just hard to imagine the Sol's really didn't save money against electricity+bulb costs of your halides.

(Partly hard to imagine because your case isn't that unique – I'm in a cold-weather area (too) and in a poorly insulated house and I still managed to save a ton of money by switching. Just not all on the electricity bill. And maybe quicker since I DIY'd and didn't have much in up-front costs....whole fixture built for less than the price of one set of Radiums. But my ongoing costs are low and roughly similar to what you should have experienced.)



Sol's were very narrow, and even unique, with their combo of 70º and 40º lenses. When I was still working at the LFS I was told by our AI vendor that very same guidance on the Sol's and that's the only way I sold them....one per foot of tank.

Almost all commercial fixtures use 90º - 120º lenses now and have boosted power around 20% vs the Sol's. It's still a bit wishful to say they cover 24x24" each (which is the general claim), but they do seem to be getting a little better every 5 or 10 years. One per foot is no longer needed.

At any rate, if the costs aren't a problem, I know you'll love the Radiums while you keep em running!

I like numbers :>

 

[mcarroll]

So let's say it costs roughly $100 more annually to run Halides (only about $40 if I use the Hamilton 14k which I may down the line)

I think I had 4 AI's in there....I did start with three for some other reasons, but then i caught it and redid all the math for four.

I may not have changed all the mentions of "three" however so the confusion makes sense. Dang!

I don't think you can blame T5's cost issues on the AI's. It's more like you didn't have enough AI's (which was admitted, kinda, and understandable cuz they were already expensive in a set of four!!).

If you had swung toward "proper LED coverage" rather than toward "T5 supplmentation" then the LED equation still would have remained pretty strongly in your favor.

All hypothetical at this point, but it's worth fully considering the value of LED's like this.....even the "high end" LED systems have more/quicker payback than I suspected.

Now I know from my other thread you are an advocate of building your own lights and it's possibly something I could do as I love diy. So that would completely change all the math. But building a light makes my a little nervous and I believe that lighting is the last place to save money in the reefing hobby when buying new. I mean everything else is pretty much just watertight acrylic tubes right? (That was supposed to be an lol moment)

As with all reefing changes, testing gu10 lights would have to start small for you! Try building a test light for a frag tank or refugium, for example. At $1-2 per bulb and 50¢ a socket it's almost silly not to experiment some. Something like $30 to light a 20 Long, for example. Then you can test for yourself whether lighting is a place to potentially save money or not.

(For what it's worth: I've been using one of these DIY's continuously for around 5 years to grow stony corals....less intensity, but they still compete well with the Maxspect Razor I have on my second tank (same system, same water, two tanks).....and I'm not the one who invented using these gu10's....quite a few others too if you google "gu10 reef". Most folks have simply forgotten that blue+white will do it.....there's nobody hyping that. Unless you count this parenthetical as hype. )

 

[mcarroll]

I think I did have the AI's at 120 watts each (which is $253/year for all four) from looking it up online....do yours actually pull 120 though? Sometimes they exclude the power supply.

 

[cilyjr]

@mcarroll I dunno I just went with what ai told me... as I've said I'm very trusting (lol not really). Maybe I'll build a light some day but not now.

Are you selling the old lighting?

Nope I learned that from the last time. Also I had a 5th sol blue over a 20l frag tank which wasn't enough coverage. So I put a 2nd over it

 

[120reefkeeper]

Lol to bad insulation.. the attic could use more for certain but the walls as sprayed in.
The heaters arent on 24/7 literally but they cycle from 76.9 to 77 all day. In the graph at the bottom ya can see where it spikes to 78 no heaters then (the fans kick on so there power draw there

OK here's where I would agree with you (let's say 90%) but...and let's assume I'll change bulbs annually (that or I'll find a new hobby lol)
I had 4 AI (we are adding 84 bucks here for the 4th that's plus 1/3 of your math. You seem like an honest guy so I didn't check it) $337
But now we need to add 108w@8 hrs @$.16 for t5 =$50(rounded) annually bringing us to $387
Both the t5 and extra fixture I feel are necessary for success with the sol (I have no experience with newer lights)

Now we have annual t5 replacement for ease can we agree at 20 bucks a bulb giving us $40
Now we are at $427 to run. This isn't including the start up of $400 buck a fixture totaling $1600 (now more with newer ones $2400) with a new halide at about a grand. Let's divide out the 600 to the last 4 years to $150 this was a big reason I waited 4 years to switch back in stead of after year 2 when I started thinking on it.
Now we are at $577 to run my set up annually

So let's say it costs roughly $100 more annually to run Halides (only about $40 if I use the Hamilton 14k which I may down the line)

So let's assume leds grow coral (and I know that they do) now let's also assume I was more successful when I ran halides (I'm aware I could be doing 1000 things differently now as opposed to then. This is hardly scientific method here). I'm more then happy to pay 40 to 100 more a year ( right around $.25 a day) for that placebo effect.

Now I know from my other thread you are an advocate of building your own lights and it's possibly something I could do as I love diy. So that would completely change all the math. But building a light makes my a little nervous and I believe that lighting is the last place to save money in the reefing hobby when buying new. I mean everything else is pretty much just watertight acrylic tubes right? (That was supposed to be an lol moment)

Ps. I love the functionality of this forum. My local Club needs to think about switching.

Running my halide /t5 combo. The lower spikes are at night from the heater kicking on and off.

You can see my temp swing is very tight.

 

[revhtree]

I know you're not bashing LED lighting as you said but I must say this. I have seen some of the greatest reefs that were grown LED only. Then I will say I have seen some of the greatest reefs that were grown Metal Halide only!

IMO there are pros and cons to both and those pros and cons will ultimately tell each user which is best for their application.