Help with setting up a hospital tank
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
That is a very good question. I can't find anything on the specific life cycle of these so can't find how long the free swimmers can survive without a host. Curious on the answer myself.
Do you have worms or feather dusters that would prevent you from using Prazipro in your DT to treat them?
Empress
Valuable Member
I took the feather dusters and my clam out of the DT and put them in the old observation tank for now. I have a lot of snails [emoji222] in DT.
Also there's a book by Dr. Moe???(something like that) has info on the life cycle of the black ich worms and a drawing.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I believe you would need 2 ounces. I would treat the tank at least twice, 5 days apart, so I would get at least the 4 ounce bottle. Snails "should" be fine with Prazipro.
I'll see if I can look up that reference.
Empress
Valuable Member
Let me know if you find it or not. I was just looking at that book this morning but now I'm at work. I can get the name of it for you later.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I found something *not scientific imo* that stated that the free swimmers can survive for months by feeding off detritus in our tanks. I'd like to find a better source though.
Empress
Valuable Member
Nope. That doesn't sound anything like what I was reading. The book I'm talking about is something like. "Marine Health and Feeding" by Dr. ? Moe. He's a marine scientist and sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I'll get that information for you when I get home from work. 
I wouldn't be surprised if Humble or Mel know this book.
I wouldn't be surprised if Humble or Mel know this book.
Empress
Valuable Member
@Humblefish
Do you think Brews suggestion above would work for killing black ich in my display tank? Using 2oz of Prazipro?
The reason I'm asking is because I had to order Formalin and it won't get here til the 10th which might be too late. But I do have Prazi on hand.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Now I'm confused.. are the fish still in the DT or in a QT? I thought they were in a QT since you mentioned worrying about reinfection from moving them back to the DT.
Here is a section from the following post you may find helpful.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/treatment-options-102.189658/
Prazipro (praziquantel): Treats flukes, black ich, and some internal parasites (worms).
How To Treat - In either a quarantine or display tank, dose Prazipro at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons of water. DO NOT OVERDOSE (especially with wrasses), try not to mix with other medications (for various reasons), and provide additional gas exchange while treating with Prazi. Wait 5-7 days, do a 20-25% water change and then repeat dosage. The reason for the second dose is to eradicate the “next generation” of worms before they can lay eggs of their own. Because while Prazi does kill worms, it doesn’t eliminate any eggs they might leave behind.
Prazipro is generally considered reef safe, although it may kill any tube worms/feathers dusters you have. It may also eradicate bristle worms. If you have mass quantities of these, the resulting die-off can lead to an ammonia spike. After treatment is done, activated carbon may be used to remove any residuals (if you need to use a different medication next). If using a protein skimmer post-treatment, be advised that it will “over skim” for at least a couple of weeks.
Pros - Reef safe, effective dewormer that is relatively gentle on most fish.
Cons/Side Effects - Mild appetite suppression, moderate oxygen depletion, wrasses are sensitive to overdosing.
Here is a section from the following post you may find helpful.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/treatment-options-102.189658/
Prazipro (praziquantel): Treats flukes, black ich, and some internal parasites (worms).
How To Treat - In either a quarantine or display tank, dose Prazipro at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons of water. DO NOT OVERDOSE (especially with wrasses), try not to mix with other medications (for various reasons), and provide additional gas exchange while treating with Prazi. Wait 5-7 days, do a 20-25% water change and then repeat dosage. The reason for the second dose is to eradicate the “next generation” of worms before they can lay eggs of their own. Because while Prazi does kill worms, it doesn’t eliminate any eggs they might leave behind.
Prazipro is generally considered reef safe, although it may kill any tube worms/feathers dusters you have. It may also eradicate bristle worms. If you have mass quantities of these, the resulting die-off can lead to an ammonia spike. After treatment is done, activated carbon may be used to remove any residuals (if you need to use a different medication next). If using a protein skimmer post-treatment, be advised that it will “over skim” for at least a couple of weeks.
Pros - Reef safe, effective dewormer that is relatively gentle on most fish.
Cons/Side Effects - Mild appetite suppression, moderate oxygen depletion, wrasses are sensitive to overdosing.
Empress
Valuable Member
They're still in the DT. Prazipro is supposed to be reef safe. I took the feather dusters out. Should I risk dosing the DT with Prazi to get rid of black ich?
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I really wish @Humblefish or @melypr1985 would weigh in. It sounds like the fish are not doing well and getting Formalin will take another week.
If it were my tank I would add 2 ounces of Prazipro to the tank ASAP. If you go this route make sure you have plenty of aeration and monitor ammonia regularly.
Empress
Valuable Member
I'm gonna do it! I have to. I have no other choice. It would be senseless to do a fresh water dip if I don't have formalin on hand for QT. There's lots of water movement and I have an ammonia badge in the overflow box where I can keep a daily eye on it.
One other thing I forgot to mention.... I have been binding food with Kana/Metro/Furan with Focus for the bacterial infection. Do I need to run carbon and do a water change before adding Prazi? Or is it ok? I don't think there's really that much in the water column.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I disagree with this statement. A FW dip would remove many of the parasites from the fish to provide temporary relief. If they are easily caught this wouldn't be a bad thing to do.
If you have been using Focus and haven't been overfeeding I would think just adding Prazi is ok.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I'll add that there could be a big benefit from getting the fish into a QT, including doing the FW dip, more accurate dosing of the Prazipro, better observation, and the ability to more easily treat the secondary infections.
Empress
Valuable Member
I'll give you my address and the fish net. QT is already set up. All you gotta do is catch them. I'll watch. [emoji57]
And you're 110% right. That's what I should be doing. I don't even know how this happened in the first place. I QT'd once, now I gotta do it again. Aarrrrrrggggg! Stupid [emoji226]. They think they own me or something. It's not like I don't lose sleep over them or have vivid nightmares. Stupid fish.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Do you think that politely asking them to swim into the net for their own good will work?
I believe you will need to treat your DT anyway so I don't think it would be a bad idea to add Prazipro to the tank right now. If you can catch them later, do a FW dip, and get them to a QT that would be great but I wouldn't not treat the DT while trying to move them over.
Empress
Valuable Member
Yeah, I'm not going to tear down my rockscape again. The tank is 8 foot long and about 250/300 lbs of rock. It was a nightmare the first time around.
I did some research just a little while ago on this [emoji218]. It must have come from one of the snails [emoji222] or one of the shrimps (came from an invert). From what I've read, it's fairly easy to eradicate. And all the websites I've visited mentioned Praziquantel. I didn't see anything about using Formalin.
This worm is very much like regular white ich in the way that they attach to a fish, drop off in so many days into the sand where they make babies and attack all over again. The only real difference is the time line and the magic potion needed to kill them. I'm just glad Prazi is fairly gentle and not poisonous to the fish.
So Prazi it is. And at this point in the game, I don't care so much about the corals anymore, or the rock, or the cute little baby brittle stars, or the baby starfish, or the pods (which are probably all dead anyway from all the meds). I just want my fish babies to be happy, and right now they all want to dose ME in formaldehyde! They hate me. But I'm doing the best I can. The hard part is diagnosing the problem and knowing if one treatment can or cannot be combined with another treatment. It gets confusing. It's easy to kill someone with the wrong treatment or the wrong dosage so ya gotta know what you're doing.
So my final decision is to vacuum the sand bed as best I can, put the carbon back in the sump and let that work it's wonders for a couple days (to help remove any leftover antibiotics), rinse out the sponges, THEN mix 2oz of Prazi in a small glass, stir it up real good before straining it through a fish net and dispersing it all along the perimeters of the tank (at the top). Then I'll wait a couple days and do it again. Then a third time for extra measure since I have a deep sand bed. I want to remove all the eggs (on the sand) and all the dead ones. If that doesn't do the trick then I give up. Naaaa. Just kidding. It WILL work. Because I said so. And King and Dancer better obey all the rules. Which there is only one rule: and that's to get better.
I did some research just a little while ago on this [emoji218]. It must have come from one of the snails [emoji222] or one of the shrimps (came from an invert). From what I've read, it's fairly easy to eradicate. And all the websites I've visited mentioned Praziquantel. I didn't see anything about using Formalin.
This worm is very much like regular white ich in the way that they attach to a fish, drop off in so many days into the sand where they make babies and attack all over again. The only real difference is the time line and the magic potion needed to kill them. I'm just glad Prazi is fairly gentle and not poisonous to the fish.
So Prazi it is. And at this point in the game, I don't care so much about the corals anymore, or the rock, or the cute little baby brittle stars, or the baby starfish, or the pods (which are probably all dead anyway from all the meds). I just want my fish babies to be happy, and right now they all want to dose ME in formaldehyde! They hate me. But I'm doing the best I can. The hard part is diagnosing the problem and knowing if one treatment can or cannot be combined with another treatment. It gets confusing. It's easy to kill someone with the wrong treatment or the wrong dosage so ya gotta know what you're doing.
So my final decision is to vacuum the sand bed as best I can, put the carbon back in the sump and let that work it's wonders for a couple days (to help remove any leftover antibiotics), rinse out the sponges, THEN mix 2oz of Prazi in a small glass, stir it up real good before straining it through a fish net and dispersing it all along the perimeters of the tank (at the top). Then I'll wait a couple days and do it again. Then a third time for extra measure since I have a deep sand bed. I want to remove all the eggs (on the sand) and all the dead ones. If that doesn't do the trick then I give up. Naaaa. Just kidding. It WILL work. Because I said so. And King and Dancer better obey all the rules. Which there is only one rule: and that's to get better.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Black ich are a smaller species of flukes which is why Prazi typically works well on them. Fortunately, this does seem to be the one effective treatment that is also reef safe. I know you have been through a lot already so I hope this works out for you! As long as your fish look like they are going to be ok for a few days while running carbon I think that is a wise precaution to take.
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