How to make a tank last over forty years with few problems

jason2459 · Jan 19, 2017

Dolomite works good. This is what I used.

Kershaw · Jan 19, 2017

jason2459 said:
Dolomite works good. This is what I used.

And wrasses can live in that?

jason2459 · Jan 19, 2017

Kershaw said:
And wrasses can live in that?

I did not have burrowing wrasses. I did have a tiger pistol and watchman goby that loved it. I believe PaulB has some burrowing critters.

Problem will be if you get something to fine it will fill into the plate and you don't want that.

Paul B · Jan 20, 2017

I use dolomite gravel. My wrasses dive right into it as does my garden eel

Chasmodes · Jan 20, 2017

Paul B said:
I use dolomite gravel. My wrasses dive right into it as does my garden eel

Paul (or anyone), have you ever kept a hogchoker or a small flounder? If so, did they seem comfortable burying themselves into your dolomite gravel?

Mo-sachi · Jan 20, 2017

Paul, thank you for your time and efforts in this great hobby of ours. I have only been in the hobby for about 6 years now and have learned a few things along the way. Mostly through my own mistakes and hard-headedness...

I agree wholeheartedly with your line of reasoning on immunity. When I was young, if we dropped some food, we picked it up and ate it (most of the time).... Hahaha.. I am 40 now and not a sickly person. You get my drift...

Any hoot; I have to admit that the use of black worms is interesting. I will look into it and try it. Thank you again for taking the time and allowing us a glimpse of your experience in reefing. Much appreciated.

Paul B · Jan 20, 2017

Mo-sachi, thank you, I appreciate that.
Chasmodes, I have kept hogchoker and regular flounders that we eat. They don't really bury in the sand or gravel, but kind of cover themselves in it. Sand would be better for them, but they can be kept in gravel.
Here is my dolomite gravel. It has been in my tank about 50 years because it was in there when the tank was brackish. I added some when I transferred everything to a larger tank in 79

Brew12 · Jan 20, 2017

Paul B said:
In My Opinion, how I feel a reef tank could be run to last over forty years with "Almost" no problems.

First of all this will not be for Noobs as I realize most things printed for this hobby are. There are many other people besides Noobs and if many Noobs tried these methods, they would fail. Not because they are stupid or have knock knees, but because this hobby requires a level of experience that can not be taught by reading alone, but comes about by seeing with your own eyes and by making mistakes which unfortunately we all had to make at one point or another. After a number of years we can look at a fish and read it's mind, know how it feels, determine if it is lonely or has gas. I can look at my tank from across the street and determine if one fish has one scale out of place, but that takes time and nothing but time will teach that skill.

This will also not be for a very mature, successful aquarist who has a well run functioning, old system because those people, Me being one of them, are hard headed, stubborn and in many cases bald and we don't like people telling us how to run our system or show us how to dance. (watch, those will be the people argueing with me tomorrow, but that is fine, I would probably do the same thing and these people are friends of mine so it is just a friendly conversation until they throw eggs at my house. )

This is for the few people that fall in between those extremes. Those people I like to call in the "Fusion Zone" where they are not sure what to do. If they should put in a DSB, BB, keep moray eels, bake a cake, eat broccoil or forget about it and go bungee jumping.

I started with "In My Opinion" because virtually everyone will disagree with almost all of my ideas. I even disagree with some of them. (This is why I wrote a book)

If I were to start a new tank tomorrow I would do it exactly as I did when I started my tank 45 years ago. (with a few exceptions) In those days I used Natural Sea water and I realize most people can't do that and that is a shame. So if you must, use ASW. ASW has a few problems first of which it is actually "fake" sea water. Yes, it has "most" of the chemicals that we can measure in generally the same proportions but real sea water has everything in it that is on earth. Things from undersea volcanic vents, meteorites (some of which I assume contain substances we don't test for because we are not sure exactly what they are but Chewbacca spit may be one of them) everything that runs off land masses during storms, some good and not so good. Chemicals exuded by corals, algae, bacteria, viruses and Columbus wash water. It is questionable if these substances are good or not, but our fish evolved in them so I consider them natural and I want my tank to be as natural as possable. This is very important to me and to my fish. (But most of my tank water is also ASW)

You can of course run an un natural tank and have success as most tanks are run like that. But most tanks have problems.

Make believe I put "In My Opinion" before every sentence so when people argue with me, I can point to that.

I would start a tank with gravel, not sand (remember IMO) Sand can work very well and is needed with certain fish but after 45 years, gravel has seemed to work perfectly for me. Gravel has one huge benefit. Any detritus (which I do not feel is bad) hides in it and doesn't get blown around. "In My Tank" I would help the gravel by installing a reverse undergravel filter and running it very slow. (I will give you time to stop laughing now)

Thats enough time. If your tank has run longer than mine without a reverse undergravel filter, raise your hand. Thats what I thought.

People ask me if I were to start a tank tomorrow, if I would use a "better, more modern system". First you would have to show me that system which lasts longer. (Thats what I thought)

The reverse UG filter needs some maintenance just like The Space Shuttle, the Enterprize air craft carrier, your teeth, your car, your toenails and everything that works needs maintenance. The good thing about a Reverse UG filter is that it only needs a stirring once or twice a year and a filtering of whatever comes out of it. That is not because detritus is bad, but that it can clog in between the gravel grains.

A huge advantage of this systemis that oxygen will flow through the entire substrait nourishing worms, amphipods, copepods, brittle stars, Godzilla larvae and everything else that is at the bottom of the food chain. Remember, this is for a natural, immune tank.

The next thing I would do is (and remember to add " IMO" before every sentenance) buy a fish (not the most expensive or delicate fish there is) and if I started this tank with fake water, I would put it in a spare tank, not decorated with PVC but have real rocks in there, I would watch this fish for maybe a week and if it is not covered in parasites, I would put it in the Main tank. I did not say to quarantine for a reason and this is "my" theories and I did say IMO.

Yes, this can be "dangerous", but remember this tank does not have any coral in it yet. The fish you bought was hopefully collected a few weeks ago in the sea and all fish in the sea have some sort of immunity. That immunity will be severly tested in this new tank and may develop some sort of parasites. This is OK. (and actually preferable) Yes i did say that but this is how "I" would start a natural, immune tank.

If you are squeemish, you could put the fish in copper for about 10 days as that will kill parasites and not affect the fishes natural immunity. (Or you could stop reading and take a dance class, maybe Rhumba)

If I were a Noob I would not do this or know anything about it because I did say Noobs should not be reading this. Perhaps they would be watching a Soap Opera if they still have such things.

25 year old fireclowns spawning

As soon as I buy this fish I would try to feed it with live foods such as blackworms or earthworms. Just a couple of worms a day is fine because we are not that interested in the protein, but in the live bacteria in the worms. If you can't, or won't get worms, at least try to get clams. Live clams would be the best thing but I also realize many people live in Utah, the Sahara or Tunisia and can't get live anything except maybe Buffalo which is not the best food.

You can use frozen clams from a supermarket but my fear is that there may not be much living bacteria in a commercially frozen clam. If that is all you can get, then get that.

I did "not" say to feed squid, octopus, fish fillets, shrimp, chicken, taco's or anything else because we want the guts of the prey animal, not just the tentacles. This is very important.

As I said we are mainly interested in the live bacteria for this "natural" tank which By the way will also be an immune tank. I would also feed something like LRS food or some other commercially available food preferably with pro biotics added.

If you can't get foods with live bacteria, forget what you read so far and set up a good quarantine system as you will not be able to run a natural or immune tank. Nothing wrong with that, it is what it is. Just a different type of a system and a system that many successful people have. Just remember a quarantined fish must always be with quarantined fish as they will have no immunity from parasites.

Now when we added that first fish to our tank, we also added parasites AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOO. Don't panic. A natural, immune tank needs parasites. Don't think of them as bad, but as "not very cute" poodle puppies. If this all works out, the parasites will live right along side your fish, maybe sampling a little slime occasionally while keeping your fish immune from the parasites.

Remember, fish have been living with parasites since they were invented, probably by Al Gore. Healthy fish are well equipped to handle parasites and parasites are needed if we are to keep our fish immune from them.

If, that fish we put into our tank becomes "covered" in parasites, we need to catch it and place it in copper at the proper dosage. This should not be viewed as a bad thing, I said there were parasites in there didn't I!. Do Not put copper or anything else in your main tank to kill parasites. If you see a couple of parasites, don't worry about it, maybe go out for a nice dinner of linguini and clams, try the merlot.

Now when you eliminate those parasites on that fish and continue to feed it the "proper" foods (which are not flakes, pellets or any dry foods of any kind) it will have an immunity from those parasites in that tank. But we need to feed the fish the foods I mentioned. (always) There are no short cuts and please don't mention "Quality" dry foods. All dry foods are Quality, but they are baked, sterilized and loaded with preservatives, if they were not, they would rot and virtually any great food will go bad very quickly without freezing unless it is live like a worm (the best food)

OK now we have the "hopefully" immune fish in there and we are feeding it the proper foods. Now we can buy another one and do the same thing.

But we must "always" feed the correct foods with living bacteria. It is OK if we go on vacation for a week to have someone come over and feed them oatmeal or TV dinners but only for a week.

A diatom filter is a great invention for a natural reef tank for a few reasons. If you would like to limit the number of parasites in your new tank, a diatom filter will severly restrict their numbers, but it won't cure anything by itself. I use a diatom filter to stir up my UG filter a couple of times a year, but any canister filter will do that.

If that new fish (or any fish) became covered in parasites, a diatom filter in conjunction with copper will cure that fish much faster and is similar to the tank transfer method which accomplishes almost the same thing. I sometimes purposely buy fish covered in parasites because i get them for free, a diatom filter and copper, in many cases clears these fish from parasites and they become great fish. Many of my fish I aquired like that and all my fish only die of old age.

Algae, cyano, flatworms, black ich, and a whole slew of other things seem to be a problem in this hobby and IMO there is no need to "Battle" these things. This is a hobby so there is no need to battle anything, if you want to battle, tell your wife she looks fat in those shorts.

Now the disclaimer:

This is as I keep saying my opinions from my experiences which span over 60 years. I did not come up with this last Tuesday and none of it came from a book or from a rumor or fish forum. It is all from my experience and I have kept many specimins of almost every fish available and have spawned many of them. I have also spent time under water with most of the fish we normally keep, but not Godzilla Larvae as they scare me.

I have a couple of problems with your post Paul.

First, I had to read through it twice and if there is a single mention of a supermodel in it, I can't find it. Makes me wonder if an editor got to this piece first!

Second, I do think this should be read by everyone, especially those new to the hobby. Saying this doesn't apply to Noobs just isn't true. You were absolutely wrong in this point.

Third, I think you underestimate the impact of your running ozone in your skimmer. It is a known parasite killer and will help keep the numbers of parasites in your tank down.

Fourth, you failed to allow me to see this until today. I blame this on your PTSD because it is obvious to me that my not seeing it couldn't have been my fault.

And thank you for posting this. I think you did a great job of explaining why the system works, and how it works. You also show why it won't work for others who cannot replicate your methods. People who think they can follow your lead by not using QT without also following your feeding methods are bound to fail at some point. Well done!

Brew12 · Jan 20, 2017

zieg9479 said:
Paul, I realize I won't change your practices but I caution anyone who believes parasites to be durable to read a little on pathology. Organisms are best served by 1) eliminating parasites and 2) increasing their health. A little detail: 1) Organisms that are healthy can survive attempts by pests or pathogens unless the pathogen pressure is so high as to overcome the organisms resistances. 2) Organisms with weak or compromised immune systems are more susceptible to parasites. Therefore it is desirable for the health of the organism to decrease occurences of pathogens and to increase immunity. Your comment that subjecting to organisms will improve their immunity is false and dangerous. It gives the impression that we should subject our fish to parasites and diseases and is animal cruelty. I know, as a peta critic I shudder at my utterance but it's true. There is a reason why Carter's program to eliminate guinea worms in humans are to both improve human nutrition and eradicate the presence of guinea worms rather than taking the approach of injecting humans with guinea worms...

You might counter my statements by saying you have been successful all these years with parasites present in your tank. It's my opinion that you probably either the parasites were not there as you may have believed or your fish were healthy and resistant, not because of but despite of parasites.

I realize I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to address your post. As humans, we routinely expose ourselves to pathogens to increase our immunity. Isn't this what vaccinations are? Isn't it why we get flu shots? Obviously, this is a bit more controlled than what Paul is recommending but the concept is the same.
I would also point out that the immune system of a fish works a little differently than the immune system of human. Fish can build up a natural immunity to ich however if they aren't exposed to ich after they acquire their immunity, most of it will be gone after 6 months. In order for a fish to maintain a natural immunity to velvet and ich, they must be continuously exposed to it. This natural immunity reduces the ability for the parasite to feed on the fish, doing less damage to the fish. It also limits the reproductive rate of the parasite which reduces the exposure, which limits harm to the fish even further. So no, what he is proposing isn't really cruel at all.

If fish aren't continuously exposed to these things, they lose their natural resistance in a way that humans don't. If a human has a compromised immune system they need to be isolated from as many pathogens as possible. They are in extreme danger if pathogens make it through the barriers we put up. If fish are not kept in a low stress environment, fed a high quality live food, and continuously exposed to pathogens then their immune systems must be considered compromised.

I say this as someone who thinks that 95%+ of hobbyists should be practicing very stringent QT protocols. I take it further and believe every fish should be treated prophylactically with copper prior to being added to a DT. Why? Because very few people can/do follow Paul's methods. Since our fish do have a compromised immune system we must use QT as a barrier to keep pathogens away from our fish.

For the 5% of hobbyists who could follow what Paul B does? I think it is far and away the best way to care for fish.

Paul B · Jan 20, 2017

Brew12 said:
First, I had to read through it twice and if there is a single mention of a supermodel in it, I can't find it. Makes me wonder if an editor got to this piece first!

AAh but you didn't read thorough enough. This is where people have problems with my theories, not reading well. Post #73 clearly mentions Supermodels.

Paul B said:
Daniel, I started a thread here 7 years ago if you are interested. It has undergravel filters, Supermodels, airplanes, Bora Bora and some of it is about fish.

Brew12 said:
Second, I do think this should be read by everyone, especially those new to the hobby. Saying this doesn't apply to Noobs just isn't true. You were absolutely wrong in this point.

I tried many times to "tutor" Noobs but I have always failed. I will advise to them to feed clams, worms, Mysis or some whole food that has the guts, eyelashes, kidneys etc, and a Noob will always PM me and tell me they can't get that so can they feed really good flakes, pellets or Stove Top Stuffing and have the same results.

Brew12 said:
Third, I think you underestimate the impact of your running ozone in your skimmer. It is a known parasite killer and will help keep the numbers of parasites in your tank down.

I am sure Ozone will give parasites an upset stomach, tan, or skin cancer but I am not 100% certain it will kill parasites. I have brittle stars and amphipods living in my skimmer. It may kill them or just put them to sleep,I don't know. In any case my skimmer picks up water near the surface and most parasites would be near the bottom so even if it does kill some parasites, most would just laugh. But you have to put your ear really close to the tank to hear them.

Brew12 said:
Fourth, you failed to allow me to see this until today. I blame this on your PTSD because it is obvious to me that my not seeing it couldn't have been my fault.

I kind of like my PTSD and have grown fond of it. Today the Veterans Administration called me to tell me they have no idea what happened to my papers that were submitted. Thankfully I have PTSD so this doesn't bother me. The VA has a lot of issues and I never had any luck dealing with them.

Brew12 said:
You also show why it won't work for others who cannot replicate your methods. People who think they can follow your lead by not using QT without also following your feeding methods are bound to fail at some point. Well done!

The method had to be followed or it will fail. It took me longer than last Tuesday to come up with this. Most people say the theory can't work because their fish always get ich. If they get ich, I would assume you didn't get them immune now did you? I pointed out fish nuances that will tell you the fish are immune but it is up to you to keep them immune. Feeding them some worms a couple of times a month, won't do it. Supermodels wear highheels every day just like you have to feed your fish correctly every day. I am not sure if Supermodels even keep fish.

We don't have to keep buying new fish to keep adding new parasites to keep immune. Parasites will keep living in our tank right alongside our fish just as they do in the sea. I am sure there are 17,873 parasites in my tank right now but none of my fish display any spots. The parasites, I am sure are sampling a little fish slime and falling off after they realize the fish has antibodies to them.
Most of us have a different immune system than fish because the fishes first defense is slime. Their slime is loaded with anti parasitic substances "If the fish is healthy". I don't mean just swimming around whistling a Lady GaGa tune, I mean spawning healthy. I don't know why that concept eludes so many people. Feed them whole foods and they will get in spawning mode like they are supposed to be in. It's not that hard. Maybe I am not explaining it correctly or maybe some people have their computer displaying what I am writing in Swahili or ancient Hebrew. If they do, I can translate what Christ said about keeping fish immune.
"My followers, feedith, thou slimy swimming things withith whole foodiths and thou will have good fishith.
That's almost exactly what he said, Give or take.

As for me being cruel to fish. I was cruel to those clams and squid I ate last night and the flounder I will eat tonight or the sea food I eat almost every day.

TbyZ · Jan 21, 2017

Hi Paul.
Can I ask; i believe you run a protein skimmer. What purpose do you believe it serves in your aquarium?

And same question regarding your algae scrubber.

Regards

chema · Jan 21, 2017

Brew12 said:
I realize I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to address your post. As humans, we routinely expose ourselves to pathogens to increase our immunity. Isn't this what vaccinations are? Isn't it why we get flu shots? Obviously, this is a bit more controlled than what Paul is recommending but the concept is the same.

I have to disagree. The concept is not the same. Vaccination is not based in the exposition to the pathogen, but in the exposition to a inactivated form of the pathogen or to certain elements of the pathogen that work like antigens to rise antibodies against them in the human body. I you get a flu shot you'll get flu. If you get a flu-inactivated shot you'll be immunized against flu (better said, you'll be immunized against the particular strain of inactivated flu virus you were shot).

Regards

chema · Jan 21, 2017

Congratulations Paul. Your posts are perfect examples of how to instruct and entertain at the same time, and your tank a living example for all of us. I admire your direct and simple way of addressing problems and solving them.

Happy reefing and keep up with the good work

Paul B · Jan 21, 2017

TbyZ said:
Hi Paul.
Can I ask; i believe you run a protein skimmer. What purpose do you believe it serves in your aquarium?

And same question regarding your algae scrubber.

Regards

My tank has always had a skimmer. In my case it allows me to use Ozone. Of course it also removes quite a few things I don't want in my tank. The algae scrubber is the best thing because I believe algae is one of the best things you can have growing. Contrary to popular belief, algae is great. It's natural and removes nitrates, phosphates some metals and a few other things. It also forces algae to grow on the scrubber so it doesn't grow on my corals. I think it is counter productive to try to eliminate algae as it grows on every healthy reef in the world. I use no GAC, bio balls or any reactors. I only dose some calcium and alk.

chema said:
I have to disagree. The concept is not the same. Vaccination is not based in the exposition to the pathogen, but in the exposition to a inactivated form of the pathogen or to certain elements of the pathogen that work like antigens to rise antibodies against them in the human body. I you get a flu shot you'll get flu. If you get a flu-inactivated shot you'll be immunized against flu (better said, you'll be immunized against the particular strain of inactivated flu virus you were shot).

Regards

That seems like semantics, but OK.

TbyZ · Jan 21, 2017

Paul B said:
The algae scrubber is the best thing because I believe algae is one of the best things you can have growing. Contrary to popular belief, algae is great. It's natural and removes nitrates, phosphates some metals and a few other things. It also forces algae to grow on the scrubber so it doesn't grow on my corals. I think it is counter productive to try to eliminate algae as it grows on every healthy reef in the world. I use no GAC, bio balls or any reactors. I only dose some calcium and alk.

Paul (I enjoy your sense of humour);

You run a scrubber (I do too) which you say removes nitrates. Yet your nitrates are 160ppm. Do you think your RUF acts as a nitrate factory?
I had a marine pure block which did!

What are your PO4 levels?

Thanks for the feedback.

lewis.maryann08 · Jan 21, 2017

Awesome read now I have to figure out where to find some of the foods thank you

Paul B · Jan 22, 2017

TbyZ (if that's your real name) If I didn't have my algae scrubber my nitrates may be 260.

For the first 40 or so years with my tank, the nitrates stayed around 20. For the last few years my fish had all grown much to large for my liking but they don't die so it is what it is. I also want them all spawning so I overfeed a lot. That also forces the population of copepods, brittle stars, tiny tube worms and bristle worms to grow to huge proportions which I also see as natural. My gravel, due to my reverse UG filter is full of life all through the gravel and under the filter plates. That is all a sign of a healthy tank. If I lift a rock, I will see amphipods and brittle stars running for cover just like you will see in the sea. If you see nothing in your sand or gravel, that is not a complete ecosystem and some creatures will have a hard time living in such an artificial place. I feel we place way to much time and effort to cleaning, siphoning and changing water and not any time trying to get microscopic life and algae to grow. This is one reason I don't have to go on disease threads and why my mandarins and pipefish spend their life spawning instead of texting SOS. I don't worry about power failures, ich, pests, diseases etc. It is a natural ecosystem and stays healthy.
The microscopic life in our tanks is more important than the stuff we buy, and encompasses more space and uses more energy. We don't pay attention to it because we don't see it.
My PO4 levels are 2.0. I don't really pay attention to parameters (with in reason of course)
Today I need to do some maintenance as I have not done any for quite a while. A couple of corals were pushed down by the crabs, one powerhead is sitting in there dead, my algae scrubber is growing lettuce, a large encrusting sponge is engulfing a gorgonian that touched it and another encrusting gorgonian is growing on a purple gorgonian that made the mistake to bump into it. These are all normal occurrences and I can remedy them any time I want. But today is the day so it will take me an hour or so.
This is Patty. Patty Pod

TbyZ · Jan 22, 2017

"TbyZ (if that's your real name) If"

Thanks for the reply Paul.
I'v got lots of copepods & other critters in my tank from my scrubber. I don't use filter pads or socks.

We don't have blackworms down in Oz, so I feed the guys a garden worm that I broke in half. My vlamingi spat it out & the others weren't interested, but I left it in the tank.

What do you thing about using bloodworms, & whats your opinion of nori?

Regard
Steve