Ich eradication vs. Ich management

[Bob Escher]

Ok
Does them eating indicate anything and how fast can it spread?

 

[Tahoe61]

Ok
Does them eating indicate anything and how fast can it spread?

It may have some influence on how severe the infection becomes, a healthy eating fish is probably more likely make it though the initial phase.

Not my image.

One has to understand the life cycle to effectively treat. Often the parasite is present and fish are not symptomatic, it may appear that the fish are no longer infected when in fact the parasite has simply fallen off the fish to continue it's life cycle in the substrate.

 

[Bob Escher]

Is Paraguay a effective treatment or even dipping them for a hour effective as well

 

[Tahoe61]

I am going to assume you mean Paraguard? Based on the ingredients I would say no it's not an effective means of eradication. If you want to eradicate the parasite than you must consider the entire system. The parasite is not merely on the fish.
How aggressively you decide treat is up to you, some hobbyist treat the outbreak and not the overall disease process, some hobbyist remove the fish and treat with copper in a quarantine tank leaving the display fallow for 72 days or more. There are other methods presented within this thread.
It's important to note that the vast majority of in tank treatments are ultimately not effective and may be detrimental so choose carefully if you go that route.

 

[Bob Escher]

Oh I agree with, I'm not going to treat the DT at all, I have invertebrates in there. To be honest I'm not sure it is ICH. I have two a royal gramma that had some spots on head forehead. I managed to catch him and put him in QT. Right now he's on his side and lethargic. I put paraguard in the tank with him. I have a chromis who started hanging with the gramma on the bottom of the tank. He shows no signs at all of ICH. I put him in the QT as well. There is no obvious signs of illness ( other than the six or so spots on the gramma. Which I don't see now) he's on his side not breathing heavy but rear end is folded over now
The chromis is not swimming around in the QT
I'll continue to watch them both and the DT
I understand that paraguard dissipates in 24 hours? If so should I then add cupermine? Can I add any other med as well maybe prizopro


Thank you so much for your help much appreciated

 

[Tahoe61]

The Royal Gramma is going to need PVC pipe to hide in otherwise the fish will become too stressed. Leave the lights off as well.

Unfortunately I am not schooled in mixing medications or the latest products.

An image would really help nail this down.

I am sure when @Humblefish has a moment he'll chime in.

 

[Bob Escher]

I do have pvc in there now. He was swimming around but now back on his side. The chromis is screwed up he's by the gramma ( been following it. But is going around in circles over and over again constantly not stopped on his side

 

[Humblefish]

I agree with @Tahoe61; photos of the affected fish are needed to make a further determination.

 

[Bob Escher]

This is what they look like now still moving but kinda stuck
They died but here is a pic

 

[Clownfiish]

Ich eradication vs. Ich management​

The purpose of this article is to discuss the pros & cons of ich eradication and ich management, and present the best methods for implementing each.

Ich eradication - Simply put, this method means doing everything possible to keep ich out of your tank. That can be accomplished by establishing & maintaining a strict quarantine (QT) protocol as outlined here: How to Quarantine. It is very important to QT each & every fish, including your very first one, if you wish to avoid ich.

Why practice ich eradication? Once introduced by an infected specimen, and so long as there are always fish to feed on, ich can survive in your tank almost indefinitely. The only way to get it out is to starve it out by going fallow (fishless) for 76 days. The parasites continuously attack (feed on) fish, which does damage and can even kill them. I personally chose ich eradication, because I got tired of “ich management” being a part of my aquarium husbandry. There’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.

The cons of ich eradication are somewhat obvious. In addition to having to setup & maintain a QT, not being able to add your newly purchased fish directly to the display tank (DT) can be a major buzz kill. QT does zap some of the “thrill” out of the hobby.

What if I already have ich in my tank? There is no easy way of dealing with this. You have to catch all of your fish, and QT/treat using copper, Chloroquine phosphate, tank transfer method or hyposalinity. More detailed information on all the aforementioned treatment options can be found here: Treatment Options Index.

The DT itself must be left fallow (fishless) for 76 days to starve out any remaining parasites. Corals/inverts cannot host, so they can be left in the DT during the fallow period. You must be wary of cross contamination during the fallow period, avoiding anything wet (including hands) when going from QT to DT (or vice versa). Aerosol transmission is another concern, so it’s best to house your QT at least 10 feet away from the DT. More info on that here: Aerosol transmission.

Remember there is no “reef safe” ich treatment that actually works! Those may (or may not) help fish with their symptoms; but no tea tree oil from India or garlic extract or any other herbal/natural “medication” will completely eradicate ich from a tank. The day someone does finally develop an effective “reef safe” treatment, we are all going to hear about it, and the inventor will become a millionaire.

Ich management - This method involves just managing the presence of the disease, instead of eradicating it. You know you have ich in your tank or are willing to risk it by forgoing QT. Despite how strongly I advocate ich eradication these days, I employed ich management for almost 30 years. I found the key to success was keeping the overall number of parasites down, while simultaneously boosting the fishes’ immune systems to deal with the parasites that survived. Some ways to accomplish this include:

• Utilizing the biggest UV sterilizer you can fit/afford. While a UV will probably never “zap” all of the free swimmers (theronts), it will keep their numbers down so the fish can better cope with the ones remaining. A diatom filter can also be used to remove free swimmers.
• Boost your fishes’ immune systems through proper nutrition. This means feeding a wide range of live & frozen nutritious foods, not just flake & pellets. Feed nori, as that is loaded with vitamins. Also, soak fish food in vitamin supplements such as Selcon, Zoecon and Vita-Chem to further enhance health. Omega 3 & 6 fish oils are great (and cheap) soaking alternatives.
• Stay on top of your aquarium husbandry! Maintain pristine water conditions, stable parameters and avoid fish that are likely to fight. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and aggression from other fish may “stress” a fish out, lower his immune system and make him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.
• Choose your fish wisely. Avoid “ich magnets” i.e. fish with thin mucous coats such as tangs. Clownfish, anthias, wrasses and even mandarins are better choices as those have thick slime coats protecting their skin from attacking parasites. Also, only buy from reputable sources, and don’t buy fish that look diseased/damaged, won’t eat or who share water with diseased fish.
• No discussion of “ich management” can be had without mentioning garlic. This topic is often debated, and I honestly don’t know whether or not soaking garlic in fish food helps with ich. I have seen it work as an appetite stimulant, so that might help right there. However, I’m less confident in its ability to boost a fish’s immune system. Another theory is that garlic leaches back out of a fish’s pores, and that makes the fish an undesirable host for parasites. While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I use garlic sparingly.

A fine example of utilizing proper nutrition to keep the bugs away is Paul Baldassano’s (aka Paul B) over 40 year old, 100 gallon aquarium. Paul keeps his fish in “breeding condition” by feeding live foods (ex. blackworms) and soaking food in Omega-3 fish oil. Most of his livestock live to be a ripe old age and some of his fish spawn on a regular basis. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul and highly recommend this article written by him: Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano?s Reef - 40 Years in the Making.

Pros & cons - One upside of practicing ich management is obvious: not having to QT. I get it; I really do. It’s exciting to make the rounds of the local fish shops, finding that “perfect fish” and then adding him to your DT. After all, having fun is what a hobby is supposed to be all about. What’s fun about adding a fish to a bare bottom QT with PVC elbows?

However, the downsides are numerous. All it takes is one “stressor event” to undo years of ich management. By stressor event, I mean something like a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, fish fighting, etc., anything that stresses a fish out and lowers his immune system. Sometimes ich capitalizes on these events by overwhelming a fish’s immune system, and fish start dying. Also, secondary bacterial infections are common in fish afflicted with ich, due to their already compromised immune system. All it takes is a cut or an open wound left by an ich trophont. These bacterial diseases sometimes prove to be far deadlier than ich itself, especially if caused by a gram negative bacterium.

Ich management is more of a “learn as you go” process, which is why experienced hobbyists often fare better than newbies. For me, ich management just got to be too stressful. The stress of seeing the spots, wondering if today was going to be the day it finally caught up with me, or if the fish that just died was a result of ich or something else. Losing too many fish under “mysterious” circumstances is what finally led me to choose ich eradication.

I lost 2 fish 1 clownfish and 1flame angel until I learned my lesson. Don't try to cure Ich. Just kill them by moving your fish to a separate tank !! You will save money rather than lose it. Great post strongly agree

 

[Humblefish]

Don't try to cure Ich. Just kill them by moving your fish to a separate tank !!

???

 

[re76]

I'm working on starting a new tank, my first actually, and I want to take the ich eradication path. How do you handle the CUC and corals?

From my understanding so far, I would have to put anything that goes into my tank, including CUC and corals, through either a round of TTM OR a 72 day fallow period.

Is this true or am I missing something?

 

[Humblefish]

How do you handle the CUC and corals?

Parasite tomonts can encyst to any hard surface: SPS/LPS corals, a snail or hermit shell, exoskeleton of a crustacean, etc.

The only workaround I've found to alleviate this threat is to house these animals in a fishless environment for 76 days (same as going fallow). With this in mind, I setup a simple 29 gal fishless frag tank (photos below) which I also use as a grow out tank. It doesn't need a sump or even a skimmer necessarily. Just cheap T5 (or LED) lighting, Koralia powerhead, HOB powerfilter, heater/thermometer, and a frag rack gets the job done. You could do the same using even just a 10 gal. You would really only need a rock or two for biological filtration (corals/inverts don't produce much waste), and even sand is optional.

 

[re76]

Parasite tomonts can encyst to any hard surface: SPS/LPS corals, a snail or hermit shell, exoskeleton of a crustacean, etc.

The only workaround I've found to alleviate this threat is to house these animals in a fishless environment for 76 days (same as going fallow). With this in mind, I setup a simple 29 gal fishless frag tank (photos below) which I also use as a grow out tank. It doesn't need a sump or even a skimmer necessarily. Just cheap T5 (or LED) lighting, Koralia powerhead, HOB powerfilter, heater/thermometer, and a frag rack gets the job done. You could do the same using even just a 10 gal. You would really only need a rock or two for biological filtration (corals/inverts don't produce much waste), and even sand is optional.

So my quarantine supplies so far are:

2x 10 gal tank + heater + air stone + thermometer + ammonia alert
1x 30 gal tank + sponge filter + small powerhead + heater + ammonia alert

My plan was to use the two 10 gal tanks for TTM, and then the 30 gal as a post TTM observation tank, and as a hospital QT when not being used for observation. I am already starting to run out of room in my basement for fish stuff, and don't think I have room for another tank, unless it is 10 gallon.

I suppose I could add CUC and corals to my DT then hold off on fish for 76 days, but that doesn't really sound great either.

I would really prefer to avoid the 76 day fishless route if that is possible. Is it possible to do TTM on inverts and Corals? Assuming I had some T5 lights I could put the coral under during TTM.

Now that I am thinking about this, could TTM for corals and inverts be less than 4 transfers since we can make the assumption that there are no trophonts and only tomonts and theronts?

 

[Humblefish]

I would really prefer to avoid the 76 day fishless route if that is possible. Is it possible to do TTM on inverts and Corals? Assuming I had some T5 lights I could put the coral under during TTM.

Now that I am thinking about this, could TTM for corals and inverts be less than 4 transfers since we can make the assumption that there are no trophonts and only tomonts and theronts?

TTM works on fish because they carry the trophont stage of the parasite, and that remains 3-7 days before dropping off. So, that phase of the life cycle is somewhat predictable.

Corals/inverts, on the other hand, carry the tomont stage which has a 3 - 72 day cyst period (dependent upon strain & temperature). Due to the unpredictability of this stage TTM cannot be used; only "waiting it out" in a fishless environment will work.

 

[re76]

TTM works on fish because they carry the trophont stage of the parasite, and that remains 3-7 days before dropping off. So, that phase of the life cycle is somewhat predictable.

Corals/inverts, on the other hand, carry the tomont stage which has a 3 - 72 day cyst period (dependent upon strain & temperature). Due to the unpredictability of this stage TTM cannot be used; only "waiting it out" in a fishless environment will work.

Ah that makes sense. Thanks for elaborating, definitely learning as I go!

 

[Bryce Peterson]

Great write-up. I admit that I was not one to quarantine my fish in the past and I'm paying dearly for it now. Probably going to be watching sponges grow in my dt for the next 76 days. As a result, I have come to a realization that not quarantining our critters is, in itself, a bit cruel. Ich management has worked for me, until now. However, what that means to me now, is that I am willing to allow a fish to live with a treatable condition and spread it to other fish. People can live with Polio, but all-but eradicating it in the developed world was the right thing to do and has spared countless numbers of people from unnecessary suffering. As soon as I have the opportunity, my remaining fish are going into a qt and treated for ich.

 

[Brandonsegula]

This was great!

 

[JasPR]

For fish tanks only--- keep your SG at 2016-2018. Keep a half dose cupramine in tank for 30 days on each time you add a fish ( dip fish first and treat separately with anti-fluke compound). Do weekly water changes and if you are protecting a valuable stock/collection ( $$$$$) and have the time, do that 10% water change daily for a week every time you add new fish. Always adding cupramine in the prepared water ( 2016 SG and 1/2 dosed with cupramine. Check the cupramine levels every few days. Keep skimmer running as that red algae on coral will likely die off. I do this routine twice a year when stocking new fish. 2 years running, three fish have been lost in a collection of 40 fish in two years. Pomacanthus angels ( four), Centropygi angels ( 7) hippo tangs ( ich magnets) 3, yellow tangs 4, heniochus 3, niger triggers 3, anthius 3, clowns 2, Marine betta 1, fiji devils 6, orange tail devil 1, talbot damsels 3, bluefin damsel 2. Any outbreak in-between these two annual prophylactic treatment routine ( or an odd purchase) is treated exactly the same way-- mild on the fish, effective and safe. The thing to understand about ectoparasites beyond the life cycle is they are omni present in coral marine fish and cross infested in holding facilities ( a game of Russian roulette). the stages can survive in fish vents, in heavily mucous gills and deep depressions in body lines. These will ALWAYS show up when there is stress in the environment-- power failure, aggression, Nitrate rise, ammonia jump, skimmer overflow or back flow etc. another much neglected consideration is feeding-- feed your fish well and with a varied diet. It fuels the immune system. fish can build a resistance to ich as a previous infestation is an inoculation memory for the immune system. That feeding however requires regimented water changes-- 10% weekly is best and 10% daily in a crisis. IMHo of course, JasPR

 

[Charles Weller]

Just wanted to thank @Humblefish and @Paul B for all of the information. I've had aquariums for the past 30 years, mostly freshwater, and just started with salt water about 1 1/2 years ago. I have to say that when I setup my first saltwater tank I was arrogant enough to think I knew what I was talking about and was quickly proven wrong. I have learned a lot since then thanks to them and many others here.