Ich Outbreak, Leaving Fallow, and a DWG

[joro]

Our tank had been progressing nicely; however, we added a larger Tomini Tang about 2 weeks ago and within a few days, ich spots started popping up on all of the fish - at that point we had 2 Clowns, 1 Diamond Watchman Goby, and the 1 Tomini that we added. The Clowns succumbed to the ich in less than 24 hours after we first saw the spots; however, the Tang held for another week or so and was eating very well multiple times a day until she didn't (she was gone 24 hours after she stopped eating) which was yesterday. We bought all the fish from a very well respected LFS that quarantines/treats all fish for a minimum of 2 weeks before they go on sale so we thought we could get around having to QT and obviously learned a very hard lesson that we need to take extra measures to prevent similar issues going forward.

That said, the tank right now is stocked with a variety of inverts (10+ snails, 2 shrimp, 1 anemone) and 8+ corals along with the DWG which hasn't seemed to be effected throughout and has continued to eat very well. My question is in regard to leaving the tank fallow which we're going to do to kill what's in there; however, catching the DWG is going to be very difficult given the rockwork, coral placements, etc. I've read that gobies are more resistant - although not immune - from ich; however, I wanted to get some of your opinions on what we should do during this period. Do we need to pull out the DWG, do we risk leaving fallow with him in there, or some other method?

Help is much appreciated on the DWG and what's the best way to setup a good QT system

 

[roberts01]

Well im the one who learned the hard way aswell, always qt fish. For now tank is with no fish till 30.06.

Would suggest that, get dwg out and qt.

I did ttm with dottyback, with fresh sw and prime on 2nd day.(7g tank, heater, airstone)

Biospira for 20g qt, hob, heater, airstone. 1.5months in and no sigh of ich, eating like a champ.

With dwg you would probably need a sand box in qt.

 

[joro]

Thanks for the quick reply and insight. One of my concerns about getting the DWG is that he's going to be very difficult to catch especially in my rock work and I don't want to disturb the coral / inverts (including an anemone) that are close to his normal burrows. Any suggestions on what may work to catch him without having to take everything out possibly causing even more stress to him and other non-fish inhabitants?

 

[4FordFamily]

What is DWG?

Also if it killed clowns in a couple days from first seeing spots that sounds a LOT more like velvet. TTM will not do anything to prevent nor treat velvet. Clowns are pretty resistant to ich, I can't imagine a scenario where clowns would have spots and a few days later succomb with any strain of ich.

I would remove any remaining fish and treat with coppersafe in a quarantine tank. Do not use prime with copper it will make the copper toxic.

 

[Humblefish]

You can't truly go fallow unless you get ALL fish out, including the DWG. I'm thinking a bottle trap should work on him:

BTW, if the clowns were the first to die then I suspect Brooklynella (or maybe velvet). Clownfish are most susceptible to brook, but it can afflict any fish. The fish’s skin will appear to be peeling or sloughing off, oftentimes causing excessive white mucous to form around the affected area(s).

 

[joro]

BTW, if the clowns were the first to die then I suspect Brooklynella (or maybe velvet). Clownfish are most susceptible to brook, but it can afflict any fish. The fish’s skin will appear to be peeling or sloughing off, oftentimes causing excessive white mucous to form around the affected area(s).

Interesting point on the Brooklynella and I really didn't consider that. In reading / looking at pictures on the Brooklynella; however,many of the symptoms seem to match including a white "covering" of the fish, cloudy eyes, and loss of coloration - all of which occurred (or at least were most noticeable) in the last 24-48 hours they were alive. We did consider velvet at one point, especially considering the speed at which the clowns were taken out - but ruled that out because the QT at the LFS included copper which I believe is effective at combating velvet? In any case, definitely a great point and is now something we need to research better because I'm sure the disease can ultimately effect the treatment and fallow period. Are there any "tell tale" differences between ich/velvet/Brooklynella that may help point to one or another? Also, with Brooklynella would it be unusual to just "show up" one day after the introduction of a new fish if the fish otherwise appeared healthy for the weeks prior?

On a side note, we did go out tonight and buy a 20G setup for a QT. Assuming we catch the DWG - who hasn't shown symptoms of anything to date - and just kept him the quarantine without any treatment would that be sufficient or can the DWG later infect new fish if he's not treated?

 

[joro]

What is DWG?

Diamond Watchman Goby

 

[Humblefish]

but ruled that out because the QT at the LFS included copper which I believe is effective at combating velvet?

If a fish were exposed to copper at therapeutic levels for at least 2 weeks, there is a good chance that fish would be velvet free (but not necessarily ich free.) However, if the fish was in copper at subtherapeutic levels then that can actually mask symptoms of ich & velvet; so once the fish is removed, symptoms would return. So the question is: How much do you trust your LFS to check their copper level on a daily basis?

It is also worth noting that copper DOES NOT treat brook at all; but there is evidence that it will suppress symptoms. This is why some wholesalers will mix copper & formalin in their holding systems, because formalin treats diseases such as brook which copper does not.

Are there any "tell tale" differences between ich/velvet/Brooklynella that may help point to one or another? Also, with Brooklynella would it be unusual to just "show up" one day after the introduction of a new fish if the fish otherwise appeared healthy for the weeks prior?

Both ich & velvet appear as white dots on a fish; ich dots are larger salt grain sized, whereas velvet is smaller and looks more like sugar sprinkles. Another good way to tell: Typically, if you can count the white dots its usually ich. However, if they are too numerous to count there's a good chance you are dealing with velvet.

With brook, the fish’s skin will appear to be peeling or sloughing off, oftentimes causing excessive white mucous to form around the affected area(s).

Assuming we catch the DWG - who hasn't shown symptoms of anything to date - and just kept him the quarantine without any treatment would that be sufficient or can the DWG later infect new fish if he's not treated?

Even if he never shows symptoms, it must be assumed he could be a carrier. So any new fish added would be susceptible to whatever disease killed your clowns.

 

[joro]

Some great information Humblefish and one additional question, with Brook is it normal that that the white mucus wouldn't fully develop (or be noticeable) until the fish are about to succumb to the sickness? For example, with our Tang who held on for a week or so she started with spots that looked like Ich/Velvet but in the last 24 hours before her death it turned into a more mucus-looking coating which resulted in loss of color, cloudy eyes, etc.

 

[Humblefish]

Some great information Humblefish and one additional question, with Brook is it normal that that the white mucus wouldn't fully develop (or be noticeable) until the fish are about to succumb to the sickness? For example, with our Tang who held on for a week or so she started with spots that looked like Ich/Velvet but in the last 24 hours before her death it turned into a more mucus-looking coating which resulted in loss of color, cloudy eyes, etc.

That's difficult to say, because oftentimes fish with ich/velvet will develop a secondary bacterial infection just before succumbing. So, what you are describing could have been that or possibly brook in the advanced stages. Its also possibly for a fish to be afflicted by multiple different protozoans simultaneously: ich, velvet, brook, all at the same time.

 

[joro]

So here's my plan for the QT and wanted to get everyone's advice -

1. I purchased a 20G setup with a HOB filter (we're seeing some black foam in the sump of our DT for this and we've removed the carbon block), hood, etc along with a variety of medications and pipe fittings (for the fish to hide in).
2. We're going to do our weekly water change in the DT which is about ~20G and use the water we take out to start the QT.
3. Once water is in the QT, we're going to start running the filter, powerhead, and heater to get everything to within the correct parameters.
4. Once everything has been running in the QT for a day or so, we'll test parameters and assuming everything is good catch the DWG and put him in the QT for a period of 4-6 weeks while the DT remains fallow.

Two general questions:

1. We were also thinking about getting a pair of clowns to treat in QT at the same time - would this be ok?
2. As mentioned we got a lot of different medicines for the QT (Cupramine, Paraguard, Metronidazole, and Kordon Rid Ich Plus) - which should be dosing for this situation and does that differ for new arrivals once we get everyone out of QT?
3. I know you shouldn't use Prime with the Cupramine but prior to adding everyone is there anything we should do - I have some Prime and IO BioSpira on hand?

 

[melypr1985]

So here's my plan for the QT and wanted to get everyone's advice -

1. I purchased a 20G setup with a HOB filter (we're seeing some black foam in the sump of our DT for this and we've removed the carbon block), hood, etc along with a variety of medications and pipe fittings (for the fish to hide in).
2. We're going to do our weekly water change in the DT which is about ~20G and use the water we take out to start the QT.
3. Once water is in the QT, we're going to start running the filter, powerhead, and heater to get everything to within the correct parameters.
4. Once everything has been running in the QT for a day or so, we'll test parameters and assuming everything is good catch the DWG and put him in the QT for a period of 4-6 weeks while the DT remains fallow.

Two general questions:

1. We were also thinking about getting a pair of clowns to treat in QT at the same time - would this be ok?
2. As mentioned we got a lot of different medicines for the QT (Cupramine, Paraguard, Metronidazole, and Kordon Rid Ich Plus) - which should be dosing for this situation and does that differ for new arrivals once we get everyone out of QT?
3. I know you shouldn't use Prime with the Cupramine but prior to adding everyone is there anything we should do - I have some Prime and IO BioSpira on hand?

Don't use prime unless you know you wont be using copper on the fish. The biospira is a good thing to use however. You'll want to go fallow for a minimum of 6 weeks with 76 days being needed to rid your tank of ick and anything else that might be lurking in there. QT set up looks good. I wouldn't add the clowns to the diamond goby just because the clowns could bring in a different strain of ick or even brook or some other disease that your goby doesn't currently have making QT that much more complicated. Deal with the fallow period and the goby.... then get the clowns. Just a suggestion of course

 

[Humblefish]

We were also thinking about getting a pair of clowns to treat in QT at the same time - would this be ok?

Because there is uncertainty about which disease you are dealing with here, I would not risk it. Ich is one thing ... Velvet/brook are far deadlier diseases and more difficult to treat for. Limit your risk to just treating the DWG for now.

As mentioned we got a lot of different medicines for the QT (Cupramine, Paraguard, Metronidazole, and Kordon Rid Ich Plus) - which should be dosing for this situation and does that differ for new arrivals once we get everyone out of QT?

I would give the DWG a 60 min bath using Rid Ich Plus (which contains formalin) and then treat in the QT with Cupramine for 30 days. This protocol should clear ich, velvet & brook - all suspects in your wipeout.

I know you shouldn't use Prime with the Cupramine but prior to adding everyone is there anything we should do - I have some Prime and IO BioSpira on hand?

I would pour some Bio-Spira over the black foam to boost nitrifying bacteria levels in the QT.

 

[joro]

On the 60 minute bath with the Rid Ich Plus is there a recommended dosage? It appears the Rid Ich Plus contains formaldehyde (11.52% formalin) U.S. P. grade 4.26% and malachite green at 0.038%. Assuming I went with a 1G bath, what should I be aiming for?

 

[Humblefish]

On the 60 minute bath with the Rid Ich Plus is there a recommended dosage? It appears the Rid Ich Plus contains formaldehyde (11.52% formalin) U.S. P. grade 4.26% and malachite green at 0.038%. Assuming I went with a 1G bath, what should I be aiming for?

1.25 ml (1/4 tsp) per gal should be safe at that concentration.

 

[joro]

1.25 ml (1/4 tsp) per gal should be safe at that concentration.

Thanks, now I just need to try and figure out how to catch the bugger without disassembling all the rock work. I tried the coke bottle trap today and no dice, he wouldn't even go close to it. I'm going to re-bait it tomorrow and hopefully it piques his interest. Again, appreciate all of the help and advice!

 

[joro]

Finally caught the DWG last night and everything went well with the bath, he's now happily in the QT awaiting the start of treatment. Does it make sense to do pazipro than cupramine or should I just go straight to the cupramine?

Thanks!

 

[Humblefish]

Does it make sense to do pazipro than cupramine or should I just go straight to the cupramine?

Since ich/velvet is the suspected culprit, I would treat with Cupramine first. You will need to go fallow in the DT for 76 days, so there will be plenty of time to deworm with Prazipro following copper treatment.

 

[joro]

Since ich/velvet is the suspected culprit, I would treat with Cupramine first. You will need to go fallow in the DT for 76 days, so there will be plenty of time to deworm with Prazipro following copper treatment.

Unfortunately overnight the DWG somehow found a way to jump through a small opening we had between the hood and HOB filter and we found him this morning on the carpet.

We did a 20% water change this morning and re-tested, everything was where we expected (0 for Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates, 1.027 S.G., and 8.0 pH. I was thinking about going ahead and looking towards stocking the QT for treatment while the DT remains fallow. Suggestions on QT procedure now that everything is net new - should we just do Cupramine or also include some period of Pazipro?

 

[Humblefish]

@joro I'm a huge fan of TTM and you can even dose Prazipro while doing it: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

When combined with Prazipro, what you get after just 13 days is a fish free of ich & flukes - the two hidden diseases which plague our hobby. All other diseases will show obvious symptoms if you observe for just two more weeks following TTM. So, 4 weeks worth of QT in total.