Japanese Deepwater Zoanthids.

[ronnie]

How do you confirm that your supplier harvested legally? Is there a chain of paperwork?

This drainbamage - I want to see something on this. And I'm not attacking BWT at all. I think it is great they are getting zoanthids from the deepwaters of Japan. But if they are illegally collected, then we have some serious issues, much larger than any internets forum.

 

[drainbamage]

This drainbamage - I want to see something on this. And I'm not attacking BWT at all. I think it is great they are getting zoanthids from the deepwaters of Japan. But if they are illegally collected, then we have some serious issues, much larger than any internets forum.

Sorry, maybe I've ignored that question simply based on my experience. I used to be a buyer for a LFS, and I can tell you I never saw a single scrap of paperwork showing that any of the hundreds of items I received every week was legal. At the time, Australia was still shut off and illegal, and I never once saw anything "aussie" advertised from any of the sources I used, and I never really gave much thought to all the indo and other stuff. How did I know anything was legally collected, from the green chromis to the GSP to the acros? I didn't, it was something I attributed to being a concern for the collectors and exporters, not for the retailer. It never occured to me I should have been gathering documentation that whole time. Similarly Hawai'i and Australia still have some of the strictest restrictions for collecting and exporting (which is more analogous to Japan than perhaps Indonesia is.) When you purchase a Hawai'in yellow tang, do you ask for paperwork to ensure it's legal? Aussie acans?

And wasn't presuming any one person for an "attack," just that this came up right around the time of BWT posts, and he's actually gone to a decent amount of effort to prove as best he can (such as contacting someone who's under the presumption that the first name is the surname.)

 

[ronnie]

My issue is this: It may take some paperwork to get a yellow tang out of Hawaii, but it takes a lot more paperwork to get ANY coral out of Japan.

I will agree that this topic is based from their posting, but is still a legitimate concern, IMO.

I'd never knowingly accept an illegally imported/transported/collected coral/fish. However, MOST of the stuff a large percentage of hobbiests buy are pretty standard things, without fancy names like Japanese Deepwater attached to them.

I can tell you this. I would question the hell out of a Japanese Deepwater Tang, but would buy a Hawaii collected tang no questions asked.

If BWT had just called them deepwater zoas, I guarantee this thread wouldn't exist.

All this for a silly name anyways

 

[Triggerman77]

A japanese maple from oregon is still called a japanese maple. Not a korean maple, nor a chinese maple, it's common name established in the industry is Japanese Maple (and I wish I could grow them but San Diego tap is just too hard and burns them horribly, and I don't have an RO unit to use RO water on them.)

I think the point that was being made was Zoa X is also called a Zoa X even though it's also found in different locals, and even though it's not from local X.

Thus, if even one polyp has been found in Japanese Deep Waters, any other Zoa that looks similar has as much application of being called a Japanese Deep Water as an Acer grown in Oregon does of being called a Japanese Maple.

Or we can go with "American" cars that are largely built in foreign countries or assembled with foreign parts-it's just a name branding.

That some claim (such as the article posted) that such "Really REAlly REALLY IMO doesn't exist" is not cut-in-stone proof. The first article posted is largely opinion from a singular source. I would accept it as a fairly valid opinion, but I'm not going to swear by an opinion.
That this has all come up right when BWT has posted up some stuff does seem like an "attack" on the vendor-I think he's actually gone to considerable length to justify his naming.


Oh, and who the heck keeps saying zoa's only grow on rock? Most wild colonies I see are usually on some form of encrusting coralline algae. Japan doesn't seem to highly value coralline, so if someone is chipping the coralline off that the zoa's are attached to, then putting them in a holding tank till the matt attaches to a piece of rock, isn't that issue solved?

+1000&37 To this post

An db i love the JM They grow nice nice Here in Eastern NC i used to have one until i bought my new place BTW if u try another use Mtero mix potting soil like 2 large bags and it should help it take off .

 

[drainbamage]

My issue is this: It may take some paperwork to get a yellow tang out of Hawaii, but it takes a lot more paperwork to get ANY coral out of Japan.

I will agree that this topic is based from their posting, but is still a legitimate concern, IMO.

I'd never knowingly accept an illegally imported/transported/collected coral/fish. However, MOST of the stuff a large percentage of hobbiests buy are pretty standard things, without fancy names like Japanese Deepwater attached to them.

I can tell you this. I would question the hell out of a Japanese Deepwater Tang, but would buy a Hawaii collected tang no questions asked.

If BWT had just called them deepwater zoas, I guarantee this thread wouldn't exist.

All this for a silly name anyways

Err...so if somethings done often enough you'll stop questioning it? (such as you don't worry about "standard" items) So the solution is to have more things labelled Japanese Deepwater and it'll no longer be a concern? This seems somehow uhm....well, Spock said it best-Illogical.

Also keep in mind-exporting and collection are two very different things. Here's an example Hobby Gets Another Black Eye: 610 Fish Found in Trash
This isn't a one-off case-so you can have an item get approved for exportation legally, that was illegally collected. Typically it'll be the more common items (such as yellow tangs and damsels) that are going to be illegally collected yet still approved for export. In the less restrictive countries, illegal collecting is even larger-how many inspectors in Bali are running around making sure exported items were originally collected legally?

I would give accolades to all who are concerned about illegal collecting/exporting, except the uproar only seems to get raised about a very few 'collector' things while the blind eye is turned towards the majority of the hobby.

 

[drainbamage]

An db i love the JM They grow nice nice Here in Eastern NC i used to have one until i bought my new place BTW if u try another use Mtero mix potting soil like 2 large bags and it should help it take off .

Nice, what variety did you have? The deep reds were always my favorite- I worked at a "specialist" plant nursery, and we actually stocked maybe 30 5 gallon pots and 10-15 15 gallon pots at any given time. Real peaceful on a busy day to take a five minute break and go hang out in the shaded area they were at and just sorta hang out amongst them.
Sunshine potting soil is also another good one-it's basically Canadian Peat which is highly acidic to begin with, plus has a fast initial "break-down" so the plants will take off, just have to keep them fertilized after.

 

[Bongo Shrimp]

All I wanted to know is if said zoanthids that are claimed to be from Japan are actually from Japan. I completely understand you about the common name of japanese zoa and japanese maple. I just want to know where they really came from and BTW I still have yet to see hardcore proof. I'm not attacking anyone. I originally asked the question. Take it how you will.

BTW whenever I see some so called japanese zoanthids being sold that I am interested in potentially buying, I ask for paperwork. It's not like I'm going after any certain person or vendor and I do not have any hard feelings toward nor do I dislike any vendor for this reason (at least none on R2R ).

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

My issue is this: It may take some paperwork to get a yellow tang out of Hawaii, but it takes a lot more paperwork to get ANY coral out of Japan.

And you know this from experience or what somebody told you?

I have taken the time out of my busy schedule to actually look into this and it does NOT require ANY paperwork to ship Zoa's out of Japan other then standard shipping invoices. Which I seriously doubt anybody will show them because people like to keep their suppliers to theirself.

 

[Speg]

I didn't, it was something I attributed to being a concern for the collectors and exporters, not for the retailer. It never occured to me I should have been gathering documentation that whole time.

Who is responsible when a pawn shop or anybody who purchases ends up getting stolen or illegal goods? It becomes the stores problem at that point; it's your job to do your homework and get paperwork. Remember the phrase that you've probably heard a bunch: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

Who is responsible when a pawn shop or anybody who purchases ends up getting stolen or illegal goods? It becomes the stores problem at that point; it's your job to do your homework and get paperwork. Remember the phrase that you've probably heard a bunch: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"

So you ask for paperwork on everything you buy?

Do you give paperwork on the corals that you sell?

EDIT: So all the people who sell Tyree corals and other "named" corals have proof of lineage IE Paperwork showing it came from Tyree or whoever?

 

[Speg]

So you ask for paperwork on everything you buy?

Do you give paperwork on the corals that you sell?

I'm not a retailer I'm a hobbyist and a consumer.

That said, it would be MY responsibility if I purchased something illegal because I didn't do my research and get the paperwork.

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

How do know what you have was collected legally? Wheres the paperwork? For all we know, you're black marketing corals out of your grow out tank.

 

[thewackyreefer]

Who is responsible when a pawn shop or anybody who purchases ends up getting stolen or illegal goods? It becomes the stores problem at that point; it's your job to do your homework and get paperwork. Remember the phrase that you've probably heard a bunch: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"

I'd love to hear your suggestions on how the industry (as a WHOLE) can document and PROVE where each coral has come from and be able to provide that information to every consumer. When you can do that maybe this will turn into a beneficial thread.

I suggest GPS tagging every coral as it's collected.

 

[Speg]

I'd love to hear your suggestions on how the industry (as a WHOLE) can document and PROVE where each coral has come from and be able to provide that information to every consumer. When you can do that maybe this will turn into a beneficial thread.

I suggest GPS tagging every coral as it's collected.

They can't...but, the claim is, these Zoanthids are coming from the "deep waters" of Japan. So, I don't have to attempt to have documents for every single one because we're only talking about this one coral. We're asking questions about one single coral...>>>>ONE CORAL<<<<....

I'm being told that the article is just a person's opinion....well, it's a "person's opinion" that these ARE deep water zoanthids.... It's a "person's opinion" that these were not taken illegally and another "person's opinion" that they were.

It's another person's opinion that the zoanthids that were asked about were not the ones in question. People can feel like I created the thread to attack a certain vendor; the reality is that I created the thread to help people and let them see what may be the real story. You can choose to believe the information available in the article or not. The purpose is to let people know and allow people to ask questions and that's what we're doing--we're asking questions.

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

I suggest GPS tagging every coral as it's collected.

You would have to sell the tags too for when people buy them and frag them so they can be further tracked from the source. I'm also thinking that wouldn't fly over seas, most people don't want people knowing their collection spots and the culture in some places are pretty brutal compared to ours. Example, a wholesale in Indo was caught fooling around with a young girl and he was murdered. His body was found in a hotel room and his head was found in his car, lol. There is also lots of stories of divers comming up missing etc...

 

[Bongo Shrimp]

I'd love to hear your suggestions on how the industry (as a WHOLE) can document and PROVE where each coral has come from and be able to provide that information to every consumer. When you can do that maybe this will turn into a beneficial thread.

I don't think it is so much about the industry as a whole as it is about certain more controversial issues such as corals from Japan (which are controversial for X reasons). It's more like for example if someone got ahold of a coral that they labeled as AND claimed was actually from the Great Barrier Reef. I don't know about you but I would want documentation showing how it was legally collected and that it actually came from there before I bought it. See what I'm saying?

BTW this thread is very beneficial because we are discussing.

 

[Speg]

How do know what you have was collected legally? Wheres the paperwork? For all we know, you're black marketing corals out of your grow out tank.

Again, I'm a hobbyist/consumer

The retailer (you) have the paperwork. Do you not have it? You've said you do

 

[Bongo Shrimp]

Again, I'm a hobbyist/consumer

The retailer (you) have the paperwork. Do you not have it? You've said you do

I'm gonna have to agree with this too. Exactly my point.

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

They can't...but, the claim is, these Zoanthids are coming from the "deep waters" of Japan. So, I don't have to attempt to have documents for every single one because we're only talking about this one coral. We're asking questions about one single coral...>>>>ONE CORAL<<<<....

I'm being told that the article is just a person's opinion....well, it's a "person's opinion" that these ARE deep water zoanthids.... It's a "person's opinion" that these were not taken illegally and another "person's opinion" that they were.

It's another person's opinion that the zoanthids that were asked about were not the ones in question. People can feel like I created the thread to attack a certain vendor; the reality is that I created the thread to help people and let them see what may be the real story. You can choose to believe the information available in the article or not. The purpose is to let people know and allow people to ask questions and that's what we're doing--we're asking questions.

I gave you the facts that they are not illegal to collect, so thats not an opinion. You can look through CITES website under Japan and you will see about 95% of their corals are LEGAL to collect. So I want to know who got the idea that they were illegal and that the costs were higher to ship then any other coral because they are not. The prices are slightly higher then Indo Zoa's wholesale, in some cases double the wholesale price for the comparable size.

 

[thewackyreefer]

They can't...but, the claim is, these Zoanthids are coming from the "deep waters" of Japan. So, I don't have to attempt to have documents for every single one because we're only talking about this one coral. We're asking questions about one single coral...>>>>ONE CORAL<<<<....

I'm being told that the article is just a person's opinion....well, it's a "person's opinion" that these ARE deep water zoanthids.... It's a "person's opinion" that these were not taken illegally and another "person's opinion" that they were.

It's another person's opinion that the zoanthids that were asked about were not the ones in question. People can feel like I created the thread to attack a certain vendor; the reality is that I created the thread to help people and let them see what may be the real story. You can choose to believe the information available in the article or not. The purpose is to let people know and allow people to ask questions and that's what we're doing--we're asking questions.

All I'm saying is that at this point this is not a useful thread. The vendor you've questioned, that spawned this thread has provided more valid information than you have in my opinion. What would you think if you were a newb visiting this site for the first time and came across this thread?