Japanese Deepwater Zoanthids.

ronnie

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LOL, I didn't think it was a dig, but sometimes I miss them so I figured I'd ask just to clarify.

As far as illegal-yes, if you were selling drugs it's just downright against the law, and whoevers doing the selling is in the wrong. I think in the case of these Zoa's, BWT provided a source showing that the collection/selling of them was not illegal (the article stated all zoas are illegal or would have too much red tape to allow selling, BWT source countered that claim.) So I thought that issue was resolved. Next we're dealing with documentation of said location and legality (that the item is not 100% illegal, only illegal in certain situations (non-medical drugs, improperly collected corals, right?)
So we're not talking about you selling something that's illegal outright, we're saying where's the proof that what you're selling is what you claim it to be (at least that's my understanding as the first claim that JDZ are outright illegal-if we're still on that one any further discussion is pointless before resolving the overall legallity issue.) In such a case, industry standards are typically used. You selling frags of your stuff is industry standard- you say "this is this" and based upon visual evidence, your assertion is believed (I'm assuming here, I apologise if this isn't what you do as I don't mean to speak for you.)
This is what the sellers of JDZ are doing, using industry standards. If something more than industry standards is required, I guess I would have to ask what is needed?

The example of what I did at the store was industry standards-I purchased and sold Hawaiin Yellow Tangs and Red Sea Purple tangs based upon information supplied by my suppliers. Now if it was something outright illegal, such as selling a Garibaldi (illegal in california but legal to sell out of state) it would be on me-The known selling of an illegal item places responsibility of the seller.

I missed their source and don't want to sift through ten pages to find it. What was their source besides this (not a quote): find zoas that are this color....which happened within a couple pages.
 

thewackyreefer

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I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm simply asking questions which aren't being answered. So should I just not ask questions that people don't want to or can't answer?

Ask away, unless you know a wholesaler personally who's going to show you some "proof" you're never going to be satisfied cause you ain't gonna find it here. Carry on gentlemen.
 

ronnie

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I guess that is what confuses me most.

Vendors/Sellers more than willing to give names to corals that specify locale, but completely unwilling to offer any proof of legitimacy.

I suppose I should just "assume" that no matter who or what it is, it is gospel since nobody will tell the truth.

Or maybe if the truth came out it would hurt sales too much? I dunno. Just seems cheezey to me.
 

drainbamage

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Exactly - almost.

If there is a $10 yellow tang not from hawaii, and you have a tang that is "from" Hawaii, and you are asking $200 because of that name, but can't/won't prove it.

Which one are you going to buy?

Why?

That is my point I guess. Why claim a coral/fish is from somewhere, knowing it will drive a higher price, when you can't/won't prove it? To me, that is bad business.

I haven't bought for retail in a long time, so I'm basing this claim on a few years past-but yes, the ones from hawaii or the red sea DID command a higher price-with yellow tangs the retail difference was roughly 15~20 dollars or so. The red sea stuff was a little more (I think a non-red sea purple would go for 49.99, the red sea one would go for 74.99) Not some huge difference, but I would call it significant, right? The justification was that those collected in the red sea/hawaii were of better health owing to the collecting habits of those regions. The customers who chose to pay higher for something considered "better" did so, those who didn't, didn't.
And perhaps I ran a shady business, but when I did attempt to run down some form of collection certification, the most my suppliers were able to provide was a line item invoice showing the region the invoice was sent from. This isn't an industry with some huge government oversight-documentation to a slight degree is all the really exists.

One of the other sponsors (I think) of R2R has this item for sale- Drs. Foster and Smith Diver's Den - Xanthichthys cf lineopunctatus with mention of both location and water depth. Anyone care to see what sort of documentation they can provide on it?
 

drainbamage

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I missed their source and don't want to sift through ten pages to find it. What was their source besides this (not a quote): find zoas that are this color....which happened within a couple pages.
Posted bellow- I have 40 posts per page showing which makes things easier to look at :nerd:

For all of those asking for CITES info on Japanese Zoa's... I have been in contact with several authorities in Japan and all of them say it is NOT illegal to ship Zoa's out of Japan and that they are NOT regulated under CITES. So no permits required if you're wondering what that means. However, when it comes to harvesting them, you can not take more then the rock they are atached to as the rock is protected.



Dear Mr.Brian,
Zoanthus sansibaricus is not regulated under CITES.
However, harvesting method is regulated under fishery law and Fisheries resource protection law in Japan.
You should confirm the trade chain of Zoanthus sansibaricus harvested in Japan, whether your supplier legally
harvested your coral from sea or not.


Best regards,
TRAFFIC East Asia-Japan
6th FL. Nihonseimei Akabanebashi,
3-1-14 Shiba, Minato-ku,
Tokyo, Japan
Tel: (81) 33769 1716
Fax: (81) 33769 1304
????????????????????????????????????
TRAFFIC is a joint programme of WWF and IUCN


I guess that is what confuses me most.

Vendors/Sellers more than willing to give names to corals that specify locale, but completely unwilling to offer any proof of legitimacy.

I suppose I should just "assume" that no matter who or what it is, it is gospel since nobody will tell the truth.

Or maybe if the truth came out it would hurt sales too much? I dunno. Just seems cheezey to me.


If you're not willing to believe legitimacy based upon what is considered standard levels of proof (in the case of this hobby/industry not much) you should disbelieve all claims of local. In which case someone advertising Siberian Stratosphere Zoas won't really bother you, right?
Naming something a Red Hornet is cheezy-but it makes it easy to identify and know what's being talked about as well as some of its specific traits. Everything named is to some level cheezy, but its just part of the hobby (domino damsel? Tell me why it's named that and find a reason to not claim cheesiness-packer fans are exempted :wink: )
 

ronnie

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I agree with the name game. It is when the name game starts to get specific is claiming locale and depth that I have an issue. I'm not a diver, and have been to the gulf of Mexico once. So I'm far from an expert on anything marine life based outside of my box (and still not an expert on it either!). I rely heavily on WWW and forums to get the most info.

The article on Glassboxes was well written, and seemed pretty sure of the illegitimacy of these JDZ. If that article could be torn to shreds with facts, then I'd be a bit more open to accepting that any zoanthid name JDZ is more likely to come from there.

And how does an end consumer do this:
You should confirm the trade chain of Zoanthus sansibaricus harvested in Japan, whether your supplier legally
harvested your coral from sea or not.
 

Wy Renegade

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That some claim (such as the article posted) that such "Really REAlly REALLY IMO doesn't exist" is not cut-in-stone proof. The first article posted is largely opinion from a singular source. I would accept it as a fairly valid opinion, but I'm not going to swear by an opinion.
That this has all come up right when BWT has posted up some stuff does seem like an "attack" on the vendor-I think he's actually gone to considerable length to justify his naming.

Maybe we need to clarify some points here. First of all Dr. Reimers is probably the world's leading scientist on identification of zoanthids found in Japan, so to say that the article is largely opinion, when its based on a direct interview of one of the few scientists in the world who actually collects and genetically researches to ID zoanthids seems a bit out of tune to me. I don't think that you can truly call a emphatic "no" statement by someone who has dedicated their entire life to researching the genus an opinion.

Secondly, the bottom line on the issue, is that the zoas in question were posted as "True Japanese Deepwater Zoanthids". Personally, as was stated by someone else, had the title been Japanese Deepwater zoas, I would have simply chuckled and moved on. But when you put the word true in there and emphasis that you imported them via Hong Kong, which is the only way to get them - you've taken it up another notch. Even then, I might have passed on over it, simply because I know better (as in, they are not deepwater). But then, one of the claimed deepwaters is not Z. sansibaricus, but Z. giganticus (a confirmed shallow water species - by both Dr. Reimers as well as collectors in both Hawaii and the Carribean). Further, its taken up another notch by stating that unless someone can match the colors of any of his "true deepwaters" they obviously must be deepwaters, followed by a nice story about how they are collected by free swimming divers and that is part of the reason for the higher cost. Now we come full circle to scuba collection and they really aren't that much higher to import than zoas from the carribean?

You'll have to pardon me if I'm a little confused by the defense, and supposed solid support of his position. Personally, I never saw the thread as an attack on a particular vendor. The OP asked about "Japanese Deepwater Zoas", yes probably as a result of the BWT sale thread, but it was a thread simply asking for information. Now perhaps because he felt targeted - BWT felt obliged to defend his position or thread. Again, I would have stayed out of it, had it not been for a glaring error in his continuing claims. The fact of the matter is the zoas in question may indeed be True Japanese zoas, I already stated that, but they most certainly were not all "True Deepwater" zoas. In fact, based on information from one of the foremost scientists in the field (based on research, not opinion), most likely none of them are "True Deepwaters".

Now those of us in the hobby who are collectors long ago came to realization that "deepwater zoas" are in fact not deepwater and most likely were never collected from Japan, but it is as you stated still a recognized name. I don't take issue with someone claiming to have deepwater zoas, I just chuckle and move on. But to say that you have "True" deepwaters and then want to defend that statement against the research of a scientists who actually collects in the field?
 
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ficklefins

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This whole debate boils down to a sails tactic. You tell me at what point someone has to say wait, where exactly did you get those corals from:

- Corals are collected from the wild
-- A wholesaler buys something that is promised from a collector
--- A Distributor buys something from a wholesaler on the word of the collector
---- A vendor buys something from a distributor on the word of the wholesaler
----- A collector buys something on the word of the distributor

A majority of the LFS out there are a get it in and sell it type of business. They don't have the time or resources to study what they have, or give us buyers more info on it. It is the responsibility of the consumers to be informed and understand from their mistakes.
 

Bongo Shrimp

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A shipping invoice from japan showing that it went from japan to the vendor is a whole lot better than nothing. And yes it would make it much easier for me to believe that they actually came from japan. It doesn't address the deepwater issue but we can take it one step at a time.
 

drainbamage

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This is going to probably turn out really long, so I apologise in advance. In an effort to show I'm not attempting to somehow claim I'm smarter or more knowledgeable than the good Dr. I'm going to copy/paste portions of the article and discuss those pieces that are opinion, and the points I'm disagreeing with for a given reason. That he states emphatically that "no" there are no deepwater zoanthids from Japan in the hobby is his proffesional opinion (to disprove that they exist as an absolute fact would require almost the same as disproving God, a very challenging thing to do-much better to say his proffesional opinion is most likely very accurate on the subject due to his occupation and experience. When I refer to it as his opinion, this is what I'm intending,)

Original article in carrots ^^
My comments in asterisks **and bolded.

^
Exporting live coral from Japan adds a tremendous amount of time, costs, paperwork and red tape. It’s not worth this effort when the same coral can be found in popular locales, such as Bali, for much less money and without the legal risk. Never mind the exorbitant overnight freight costs when shipping anything out of Japan. Or the fact that anything over a few mm of scleractinia, which includes calcareous substrate, is illegal to export out of the country and prosecutable in the U.S. under the Lacey Act. Lest we also forget that even coral leaving from one prefecture to another in Japan has its own set of regulations and laws. Just saying…^

*Exporting from Japan is not the only way for a coral to be FROM japan surely-no limit of water ranges has been established to claim if a coral is from one landmass or another. If we start demanding corals labelled from a land mass get exported from that same land mass, the name might very well must be changed. As others have stated African and Red Sea items exist in the hobby despite those regions not allowing exportation (oh, and how do we designate Red Sea animals if we require the landmass exportation clause? Aircraft Carriers stationed there as point of export?) Considering the disputed island chains near Japan/China and that most statements of "true" JDZ are acknowledged as being exported from Hong Kong (Chinese) it is not unlikely to consider a Chinese collector gathering from these disputed waters, then exporting through Hong Kong. Article states it's "not worth the cost...when same coral is available elsewhere cheaper" this I believe is the statement BWT countered with the notion of "show me identicals from elsewhere. I believe one has been shown that is seemingly very similar, and while I would say that's a very good piece of evidence, 1 look-a-like is not conclusive surely. As far as "Just saying" and comments about movement of corals within Japan-obviously opinion and/or irrelivent (the just sayin is opinion based on information, the movement in country is the irrelivent part,) trade of california native species within california is extremely restricted or outright illegal, but these same animals are readily available in different states and countries.*

^
Often times people claim that these corals are peeled off the rock for this very reason; because with the right export documents, soft corals can technically be exported from Japan. This may be true, but the numbers do not add up. (Nnumerous professional aquarists and stores in Japan state that the few corals that are exported for the commercial trade are done so illegally via a neighboring country. Per comm T. Otake).^

*First statement seems to support the legal collection and sale of JDZ, even from a Japan source. Second statement is a communication with a person. I don't know the credentials of said party, nor is it given, so the statement must be considered opinion with the authority of such opinion left open. However, the same statement also points out that corals ARE commercially traded out of country, legally or otherwise. At the least this provides credence to JDZ possibly existing in trade, and considering the legality issues considering many collection areas as I previously mentioned, to claim legal or illegal could be very tricky. Also, please note the "peeled off the rock" is similar to my statement regarding harvesting the zoanthids off the rock and re-attaching to a legal piece of rock prior to exporting*

^
If this were true, the corals were shipped with legal paperwork, we would have documentation in the United States of these corals landing from Japan. Right? Turns out the US Fish and Wildlife Service has not seen these Japanese imports like we see on the Internet. It’s piqued their curiosity enough that they have been looking into it for sometime now. Their ‘investigations’ have been more than enough to put this issue on the radar of some major players in the livestock industry.^

*If the requirement for JDZ to be exported from Japan to bear that name, the first statement would prove all-inclusive, but that's not how reality works. Again, a collector could be using Hong Kong as their port. Thus lack of anything directly imported from Japan is not conclusive-it proves that Japan itself is not exporting any significant number of these. Most of those who advertise having purchased JDZ do not claim Japan as source, so seems to be a common agreement. USFW surely has some information collected so far, but nothing is really sourced from them-considering the article claims that USFW is a source for evidence agaisnt JDZ, this is at the least weird and goes a length to showing the article is not providing fact upon fact, instead it is relying to at least some degree on conjecture and assumptions*

^
Collection of marinelife in the warmer waters of southern Japan is allowed. Any local can jump in with some fins and snorkel. The key difference is that SCUBA is prohibited, unless special permits are acquired. Said permits are also very difficult to get.
James gave us a run down of the laborious and time consuming permit process that he must go through to collect zoanthids while scuba diving and it’s not fun. (Multiple sources from Japan have also told GBD that the majority of SCUBA collection is done illegally.)^

*the Dr. (referring to him this way simply so I don't have to continually type his name, no belitting by not utilizing his name is intended) states that it's laborous and time consuming to get permits that allow him to SCUBA collect. No details are given, just that a marine bioligists finds it time consuming and a waste of time to attain the permits. This is not an absolute statement, nor is cost mentioned-only that it takes time and effort. Thus saying that SCUBA collecting is too expensive and thus makes JDZ unlikely is unfounded at best. That the multiple sources state the majority of SCUBA collection is done illegally-again, we're talking legallity without pointing towards what laws are broken. Are they being illegally collected in terms of terriroty, in terms of done without proper permits, in terms of what exactly? At the least the article again shows that corals ARE being collected by SCUBA, thus allowing for the belief in JDZ existing. And just randomly, I type "SCUBA dive Japan" into google and get a number of sites suggesting it's a great place to SCUBA, thus SCUBA itself is surely not a huge problem, the question is SCUBA collection, which the Dr. only lends credence to it being basically a pain in the bum (my words)*

^
Legal matters and paperwork aside, I was presented with the most damning piece of evidence that these corals are not in any fashion “deepwater”. As we often see in aquariums, when Zoanthids are expose to intense light and higher flow rates, they form dense and compact colonies–with little space between polyps. As they grow deeper the polyps spread farther and farther apart from one another. The same is generally true for the Zoanthids living in the ocean. When asked if he thought these colonies were collected in anything relatively deep (10-15m+), James was quick to retort back, “No”.^

*this is a pretty good point-Zoas getting less light and higher flow rates do not form the dense and small-polyped matts seen. That the same is generally true in the ocean is rational. So is the notion of Zoas that are put into more intense light and higher flow shifting into those dense matts. That the purported JDZ do not look sparse and spread out is only held as evidence if the vendors were showing us what they looked like in dimly lit and low flow settings-otherwise what is establishing that these Zoas did not look a certain way in one condition and another in a different condition? That the Dr. retorted he did not believe in any collection of zoas from 10-15m (which is now established as what "deep" means, at least for the sake of this article) IS opinion. Again, a very qualified opinion, but opinion, not a fact. Explanation is not given as to the reasoning, only that the Dr. believes it not to be the case (though I presume the rest of the article is the reasoning, just pointing out that the Dr. himself is not providing further explanation, the article's author is*

Continued below as apparently I'm way too long winded...
 

drainbamage

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^
In time we should find out more on why exactly this polyp spacing occurs; Dr. Reimer’s students are currently researching Z. sansibaricus strains and comparing those from shallow waters to those from deepwaters. “Zoanthids living in deeper waters are also not nearly as colorful as their shallow water counterparts.” He added, “There can be a big difference in color, size and shape, but they are the same species”.
When they find Z. sansibaricus at lower depths, there are fewer polyps as well. James shared some information on a relatively normal colony they collected at 50m that contained roughly 20 scattered polyps. This was the typical case for this species in “deepwater”.

*Earlier the article establishes deepwater (considering there has yet to be any source I've seen defining what deepwater means) as 10~15 meters. Here the Dr. discusses Zoa's found at 50meters. from 10 meters to 50 meters is a MASSIVE jump. When i read the article the first time this is what caught me and made skeptical of so much of it-the accuracy in reporting was lacking. Thus the comments in regards to color are challenging to understand-are they talking about the 10~15m range, or the 50m collected polyps? True, most corals under less light lose color-though many have proven to gain it when given higher light conditions (brown acro's anyone?) This section of the article is hard to lump in with the rest as without understanding the depths and what is being reffered to, how does one correlate information? I'm not claiming this somehow destroys the article or something, it comes across as a disparate statement however, which furthers my assertion that the article is not entirely fact based.*

^
Today, the term “Japanese Deepwater” may just be marketing to describe a type of coral–however the legal and price implications of this branding have allowed sellers to make extreme mark ups where they are not warranted. In addition this practice gives the industry a black eye as colonies of “Japanese” corals appear smuggled into the States.^

*yup, it may just be marketing, nothing to discuss there-anything involving the buying and selling of items usually involves marketing. "extreme markups where they are not warranted" is a phrase with no founding in this article. No establishment of what an acceptable mark-up is placed, nor commonly known (shall we use the mark-up on lumber? The mark-up on a car? The mark-up on a home-made knit sweater? Mark-ups vary across industries and even in industries. The rarer something is, the more it's marked up. As far as what is warranted? Same problem as before-you must establish what IS warranted before saying when something is not. Again, this is important for me to define this article as largely opinion and not fact, and to explain why I define it as such.
That this practice (what practice? the article alternatley states that JDZ do not exist, that they do, that it's all illegal, that it's mostly illegal) gives the industry a black-eye is opinion. Again, simply important to define the article as opinion and not fact.*

^
A big thanks to Dr. James Reimer for taking the time to chat with me regarding this craze and Zoanthids in general. He’s a true ocean lover and dare I say friend of aquarists–at the end of the day, he is happy to see a group of people that love Zoanthids; an animal he’s dedicated so much time to. Hopefully we act on that “love” in a sustainable manner.^

*The Dr. chatted with the article writer, thus the article writer is the giver of most of the articles information (or else it would be an article mostly of quotes) based upon conversations. Article is not citing sources of documentation on his conclusions nor foundations, only that this is his opinion given what information he gathered.
That we act in a sustainable manner seems seperate from the existance of JDZ*


Lastly, just for what it's worth I'm going to state that I have no idea why I seem to be going to an effort to prove some point. I don't own any JDZ (or purported JDZ), I've never bought from BWT and don't have any near future plans of doing so (tanks are past full so unless something jams me in the eye with purtiness I don't do much purchasing.) I read the article with curiousity, and the above things made me skeptical of it. When I saw a discussion start, I jumped in. Philosophy has always been an interest of mine, so the idea of taking a topic and discussing it is fun (not calling this philosophy, just the Socratic method of "topic, and discuss!")

And yea, I type probably faster than i have any reason or need to. I spent some portion of my teenage years on forums-political, religious, and fish (not nessecarily in that order) and I guess it just sort of happened with practice.
 
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I didn't read it bro. I just don't know your credibility on the subject.
 

drainbamage

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This whole debate boils down to a sails tactic. You tell me at what point someone has to say wait, where exactly did you get those corals from:

- Corals are collected from the wild
-- A wholesaler buys something that is promised from a collector
--- A Distributor buys something from a wholesaler on the word of the collector
---- A vendor buys something from a distributor on the word of the wholesaler
----- A collector buys something on the word of the distributor

A majority of the LFS out there are a get it in and sell it type of business. They don't have the time or resources to study what they have, or give us buyers more info on it. It is the responsibility of the consumers to be informed and understand from their mistakes.

And realistically you missed two steps-an exporter and an importer. In some cases you could have an additional step of collector to aquaculture facility (farm), though typically most of those facilities also act as the exporter.

A shipping invoice from japan showing that it went from japan to the vendor is a whole lot better than nothing. And yes it would make it much easier for me to believe that they actually came from japan. It doesn't address the deepwater issue but we can take it one step at a time.

Fair enough-how best to deal with the assertion that most exporters of these items actually reside in Hong Kong? Personally I'd go with the simplest solution that the land-mass used to export the coral is what's used to describe where it's from, but this creates a lot of headache with species from the island chains (both in the Atlantic and the Pacific.)

I didn't read it bro. I just don't know your credibility on the subject.

Again, fair enough. All I can do to establish credibility is to write stuff in the forum. If you don't choose to read it, well, can't really engage in the discussion then can ya?
 

ronnie

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Somewhere in this thread - 30m was "determined" to be deepwater.

I'd think zoas from 50m would be even more "deepwater" - shouldn't they be worth even more?

Scuba diving tourist wise is probably pretty prevalent in Japan - Scuba diving for collection however? I don't know.

The markup isn't warranted because the zoas are most likely from Indonesia or some other common collection point.

BWT said "My final thoughts on this topic...

Since we have never seen any of the colorations as the "Japanese deepwater Zoa's" before, show us those same colorations from somewhere else. If you can't then you this thread if a waste of time."


Only two or three colonies were shown. And then someone posted ONE zoa that had a very similar, if not almost the same, color. Give me some odds of the number of people that both, visit this thread AND have these JDW zoa coloration? This is my opinion, but I'd say PRETTY SLIM. For me, one is enough. If we are going to say it isn't, then show me 100 zoanthids from Japan. Then we can compare how many are already in circulation. That would be a small sample size, but would give us an idea of how rare they are. At this point, 33-50 percent are just common zoas with a fancy name. I base that on the fact that these are "TRUE" JDZ, not to be confused with the merely relabeled JDZ, which are just a name. I say that because BWT has clarified when these zoas are actually from Japan or not. I'm basing this fully on the classification of "TRUE"

More later - gotta go to work.
 

Wy Renegade

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This whole debate boils down to a sails tactic. You tell me at what point someone has to say wait, where exactly did you get those corals from:

- Corals are collected from the wild
-- A wholesaler buys something that is promised from a collector
--- A Distributor buys something from a wholesaler on the word of the collector
---- A vendor buys something from a distributor on the word of the wholesaler
----- A collector buys something on the word of the distributor

A majority of the LFS out there are a get it in and sell it type of business. They don't have the time or resources to study what they have, or give us buyers more info on it. It is the responsibility of the consumers to be informed and understand from their mistakes.

Exactly correct - which is why I do think that threads like this are important and one of the reasons I chose to get involved. If not through the forums and by asking questions, how will the consumer become informed?

Legal matters and paperwork aside, I was presented with the most damning piece of evidence that these corals are not in any fashion “deepwater”. As we often see in aquariums, when Zoanthids are expose to intense light and higher flow rates, they form dense and compact colonies–with little space between polyps. As they grow deeper the polyps spread farther and farther apart from one another. The same is generally true for the Zoanthids living in the ocean. When asked if he thought these colonies were collected in anything relatively deep (10-15m+), James was quick to retort back, “No”.^

*this is a pretty good point-Zoas getting less light and higher flow rates do not form the dense and small-polyped matts seen. That the same is generally true in the ocean is rational. So is the notion of Zoas that are put into more intense light and higher flow shifting into those dense matts. That the purported JDZ do not look sparse and spread out is only held as evidence if the vendors were showing us what they looked like in dimly lit and low flow settings-otherwise what is establishing that these Zoas did not look a certain way in one condition and another in a different condition? That the Dr. retorted he did not believe in any collection of zoas from 10-15m (which is now established as what "deep" means, at least for the sake of this article) IS opinion. Again, a very qualified opinion, but opinion, not a fact. Explanation is not given as to the reasoning, only that the Dr. believes it not to be the case (though I presume the rest of the article is the reasoning, just pointing out that the Dr. himself is not providing further explanation, the article's author is*

Ok fair enough, I will conceed that Dr. Reimers statement is opinion and he didn't state any specific research. However, his opinion is obviously based on his work, regardless of whether he sites that work or not. I could point you in the direction of articles on the internet where he talks about Zoanthus gigantus as being a shallow water species, but again, you would simply point out that its opinion, because in the articles he's stating what he's learned from his research without posting specific research results - not typically something you're going to find on the internet unless you have access to a university's web archives (which most of us don't).

Regardless of whether it is opinion or not, the Dr. (in my opinion) is certainly far more qualified to state his opinion about whether they exist than any one of us (including vendors whose sole piece of evidence) may or may not be a piece of paperwork stating the use name of a coral. And when it comes down to deciding who I want to listen to, I'm going to fall on the side of the person who is actually in the field collecting and sampling himself. You are welcome to fall on the side of the vendor and a piece of paper if you so choose. We all have the right to believe what we wish.

Further, I disagree that something that has grow one way in the wild will suddenly (in the course of shipping and being placed in a series of holding tanks) change its appearance. If zoas grow wide apart on a rock in my tank - when they end up in someone else's they are still going to be wide apart - they may change their growth pattern in that tank and over time grow closer together, but not simply during the transition. Therefore imported corals should show the characteristics of the wild stock, not characteristics that may develope in a aquarium.

And finally, you are ignoring the FACT that not all the zoanthids in question are or were the same species - I presume because you really don't have any arguement on that issue.

Names as used in the hobby are just that - people need to understand that. They are names that we attach to these corals in the hobby in an attempt to help us recognize them. They are not based on science, they are not based on research, and often times they are not even based on accurate collection information. They are simply names we have labeled the coral in question with. When you say something is a Japanese Deepwater zoa, anyone who has been into collecting zoanthids for awhile knows to expect a set of characteristics and if you're going to claim that something is such, then it should exhibit those same characteristics, not the characteristics of another group IMO.
 

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I don't know if anyone read part one:
"I asked him, “Have you seen these types of Zoanthids in Japan?†The polyps in question were all Zoanthus sansibaricus, a small and vibrantly colored polyp that comes in a variety of morphs and is the species often called “JDWâ€. These particular images, were links I gathered from around the internet of various retailers selling the said “Japanese Deepwater Zoanthidsâ€.

“Z. sansibaricus?†he quipped, “Yeah they are here, but I’ve seen many more in Indonesia, Australia, the Galapagos, even Hong Kong and Singapore.†He went on to say, “There are 20-30 real common color morphs that can be found anywhere… The majority can be found anywhere.†Many of those “20-30″ were included in the links I provided to James"


I don't think anybody is arguing if these exist at all. I think it's fairly clear they don't come from deepwater. The argument is if they came from Japan or not.

It just boggles me that a hobbyist that has never studied a zoanthid in their entire life would argue with a man that has dedicated his life to them. Not to mention study them in the country he works. This argument is almost pointless. Yes there are real Japanese Zoanthids out there. Nobody will ever know if the ones they buy really came from there. Half of the Aussie stuff in your tank is probably not Aussie as well. It's all marketing from a trade that is out to make money.

If it looks nice, it will sell. If it looks nice, buy it. If not, who cares.
 
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It's a great point you make agent and I would totally agree.

BWT sent me a private message telling me what the wholesale prices are for coral vs what they charged for the zoas presented on their forum...that's not an issue at all. I told him that price is not the issue here and those zoanthids were REALLY nice. All he had to do was say "Really nice zoanthids for $$" and I would have been hooked. He could have charged double what he charged and someone would have gotten a GREAT deal. Again, price never was nor is the issue...BUT selling something as something it isn't in order to jack up the price OR draw attention IS an issue.

drainbamage: My little short comment wasn't intended to be mean...It was meant to show you basically what you yourself are saying. You're saying that the Dr. who is in Japan studying has written this article out of opinion, and fair enough, it is his opinion. It's also bluewatertropicals opinion that these are "Japanese deepwater zoanthids" and my opinion that they are not and YOUR opinion that BWT is telling the truth and so on and so forth... You're choosing one opinion over another and discrediting another opinion because you don't believe it.....You'll find out that most of what you think is "fact" is really just an opinion. As humans, we don't have a lot of FACT...it's a lot of beliefs and opinions.

It's my opinion, and this scientists opinion, that those are not truly from Japan nor are they in deep waters...that opinion is based off of research done by this Dr. Reimer (I hope I spelled his name right).

Bluewatertropical has been really nice in joining in the debate and I hope they haven't takn too much offense to anything said here because that is not the intention of the posting of information. That being said, Bluewatertropicals opinion is that they're from Japan and from deep water. Their opinion is based on information that was told to them by another dealer...and that's it.

Please don't be so quick to discredit an opinion as useless...because opinions are all we have.

I honestly don't even see the point of debating this anymore because we'll obviously never agree. One thing we should agree on is that all of this is opinion based. I think the article should be read by everybody who is interested and they should all for their own opinion--that's it.
 

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