Japanese Deepwater Zoanthids.

drainbamage

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Somewhere in this thread - 30m was "determined" to be deepwater.

and more...

Assuredly collection for SCUBA is different from tourism SCUBA-I wasn't intending to say it was identical. More I was just referencing the article saying that one of the reasons against JDZ existance (as the article seems to be inferring that JDZ don't exist, in the least in any number.) Is something from "deeper" worth more? Only if it's collorful-otherwise only to a very specific collector who might like it.
I think with deepwater never getting established (you say we've talked 30m here, the article uses 10~15m as well as 50m) the depth issue at some point has to be ignored to a degree. I'm not trying to do some slimy slip out on that issue, it just seems that someone could say deepwater simply implies they're below the tidal zone, thus they stay submerged at all times in contrast to "shallow water" zoas that are exposed at low tide. There's no consensus from either the acrredited source (the Dr.) nor from any other party as to what deepwater means.
The color comparison-I think it's a really weak argument to use. I don't know much on the species, but the Dr. points out they're widespread across much of the pacific, thus I'm going to presume there's similar/identical colonies in many waters. What I've tried to put forth is just that saying JDZ don't exist is unsubstantiated given the information provided.
Have fun at work-I finished up a midterm yesterday morning and have been trying to do anything but think about math since (so yea, I'm posting way too much here right now)

several things including...(doing this to save space-drainbamge)
And finally, you are ignoring the FACT that not all the zoanthids in question are or were the same species - I presume because you really don't have any arguement on that issue.

Firstly-the only reason I brought up the opinion thing is that many were reffering to the article as being nothing but fact. My intent was pointing out that the majority of the article was the writers opinion, with a few pieces of information from the Dr. provided. Beyond that-yes, facts are different from opinion, and in the article not much fact was provided. I'm one of those weird guys that likes to use documented facts before coming to an end-all conclusion. Even over something as silly as JDZ, its just a little quirk. Yes- in every way concerning this topic the Dr. is much more qualified than most anyone on this forum, and I think i've pointed this out everywhich way I can. I don't presume to know more than him, I'm only being a critic against the article. I've questioned a few of the ways that the article brings up his statements as being not very well put. That's not saying I know more than him, again, I know full well I don't.
The spacing thing- an incredibly weak argument on my part, I wasn't intending to use that discussion as conclusive, only as a possibility to prove existance. In math/logic, to disprove a totality statement you need only find one instance of its falsity-I was just presenting an example of how it "might" occur. Some aquaculture facilities do sit on corals for awhile, so it's just a possibility. The other challenge is again the article makes no establishment of what the heck deepwater is referring to-the spacing is discussed when talking about zoa's from 50m deep. That's a pretty extreme depth from what I understand, so how the spacing occurs at 5m, 10m, 15, and so forth is an unknown.
Lastly- as to why I ignore the facts about the species it's pretty simple. I don't like talking about things I have no grounds to talk about. I don't know the means to classify the different species of Zoa's, nor the means to tell one species apart from another. I've put up a thread asking for explination so I can learn, I've pulled out a few of the books in my library that discuss it, and am doing the best I can to educate myself on the subject. Till then I can't discuss it one way or another. The Dr. states the species discussed range through many regions of the Pacific. When discussing what species exist at what depths vs what BWT posted up-I can't tell the species with what BWT posted, so I can't discuss it. If someone is able, and can cite a source stating that given species only live up to a certain depth and in a certain range, problem is mostly solved (if given species do not live in any area of the ocean remotely near japan, DONE! The depth will help, but given the problems with what deepwater means, we're better off beating a dead horse for awhile.)

It just boggles me that a hobbyist that has never studied a zoanthid in their entire life would argue with a man that has dedicated his life to them. Not to mention study them in the country he works. This argument is almost pointless.

Wait-I've never studied zoanthids? I'm pretty sure I study some every day. Or am I not studying in the right way?
Please tell me once where I've argued saying the Dr. is flat out wrong? I've said the conclusions put forth by the articles author do not nessecarily follow from what the Dr. has said. That's not arguing that all the Dr.'s research is somehow wrong. He acknowledges that these species DO exist in Japan, simply that it's easier to find them elsewhere.
The article that was posted at the beginning of this thread says that JDZ most likely don't exist in the hobby-so that is what's being discussed. You've asserted it's clear that they don't come from deepwater-can you please explain the clarity? The dead horse I've now named DeepAqua has still not confirmed what deepwater means, which sounds a lot like someone saying that Zozashi's don't exist but never telling you what the heck a Zozashi even is.

(many things-drainbamage)

many have reffered to the article as fact. I simply was showing where it's not. I'm not taking sides here, I didn't realize it was either the Dr. or BWT with no other option. I pointed out that the Dr is not the author of the article, not the person drawing conclusions in the article. Thus saying the Dr. is providing the facts that prove the article is not a valid conclusion, that's all. I'm not discreding any opinions as useless-I think opinions have value, the question is always how much. I know quite well how much of knowledge is based on opinions vs fact, and it troubles me. Heck, we'd be drinking a whole lot less milk if we used fact over opinion, but opinion has prevailed. I don't think trying to find and use more facts should somehow be a fault though, especially in a case such as this. As you said, the more people know the better-surely the more knowledge they know even better than the more opinions they know, yes?
When you said you didn't read what I wrote, all I said was that it's going to be difficult to engage in a discussion if we're not talking-I didn't take what you said as snide, nor did I intend to be snippy in reply, if I did so I'm sorry.
Again, I'm not viewing this as BWT vs Dr. If that's the only option here I feel a fool for having joined in the discussion. I thought this was "do JDZ's exist." If the only options are "this article author has talked with the Dr. thus his conclusions warrant no option of debate" or "BWT claims are 100% valid and any disagreement should not be considered" then this should have just been a poll with no options to post. I thought it was a discussion, so I did so
 

ronnie

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Here is what the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service had to say:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the importation of corals from Japan that will require clearance by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Our mission is, working with others, to conserve, protect and enhance fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people.

If you intend to import these corals for commercial purposes, consistent with our definition of commercial, regulations contained in Title 50, of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 14.91, require that you must obtain an import/export license prior to engaging in business as an importer or exporter of wildlife or wildlife products. The license is valid for one year from the date of issuance and costs $100.00. In addition, as an import/export license holder, you must pay inspection fees for each wildlife shipment imported or exported under the license. For information on inspection fees and how to calculate the inspection fees that you will be required to pay, please visit our website at: Download the Law Enforcement Annual Report <http://www.fws.gov/le/AboutLE/2010InspectionFees.htm>

Any wildlife shipment would be considered commercial if the shipment is being imported or exported " related to the offering for sale or resale, purchase, trade, barter, or the actual or intended transfer in the pursuit of gain or profit, of any item of wildlife and includes the use of any wildlife article as an exhibit for the purpose of soliciting sales."

You can view our complete definition of commercial at the following website: Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: <http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2a9652dc6b37e04aa0e7360c424f07e5&rgn=div8&view=text&node=50:1.0.1.2.8.1.7.4&idno=50>

You can find the application for an import/export license on our website at the following address: http://www.fws.gov/forms/3_200_3.pdf <http://www.fws.gov/forms/3_200_3.pdf>

If you are not importing these corals for commercial purposes, consistent with our definition of commercial, you do not have to apply for an import/export license. However, you may still have to pay inspection fees depending on the species involved. If you import corals that are not protected by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES), an inspection fee of $56 will apply. However, if you import corals that are protected by CITES, an inspection fee of $112 will apply. For information on inspection fees and how to calculate the inspection fees that you may be required to pay, please visit our website at: Download the Law Enforcement Annual Report <http://www.fws.gov/le/AboutLE/2010InspectionFees.htm>

An import/export license only authorizes the importation or exportation of wildlife or wildlife products in general terms. Please be advised that this license is in addition to, and not in place of, any other licenses or permits required for protected species of wildlife.

Corals in the Order Zoantharia are not protected however, you should be aware that other species of corals, and in particular, stony corals, in the Order Scleractinia, are protected under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). CITES is an international agreement between governments. Its aim is to ensure that international trade in specimens of wild animals and plants does not threaten their survival. The species covered by CITES are listed in three appendices according to the degree of protection they need. Appendix I includes species threatened with extinction. Trade in specimens of these species is permitted only in exceptional circumstances. Appendix II includes species not necessarily threatened with extinction, but for which trade must be controlled in order to avoid overutilization that may threaten them with extinction. Appendix III contains species that are protected in at least one country, which has asked other CITES Party countries for assistance in controlling the trade in that species. We recommend that you check the CITES website at:Appendices I, II and III to determine if the coral species that you wish to import are protected by CITES. <http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml>

If so, you must obtain a valid CITES export permit issued by the CITES Management Authority in Japan in order to import those CITES-listed coral species into the United States. You can find contact information for the Japanese CITES Management Authority on the CITES website at: National Contact Database <http://www.cites.org/cms/index.php/lang-en/component/ncd/?country=JP> <http://www.cites.org/cms/index.php/lang-en/component/ncd/?country=JP>

Whether or not these corals that you wish to import are protected by CITES, as you prepare to import these corals into the United States, you must complete Form 3-177, Declaration for Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife. You can find this form on our website at the following address: Forms available in .pdf format through the Office of Law Enforcement This form is not difficult to complete, although you must provide the scientific name for each species of coral that you wish to import. <http://www.fws.gov/le/ImpExp/faqs.htm>

Please have this form completed and have it, any required Japanese CITES export permit, a copy of your import/export license, if applicable, and these corals available for inspection as you prepare to import them into the United States.

You must import your corals at a designated port. You can find a list of designated ports and contact information for those ports on our website at the following address: FWS Law Enforcement Designated Ports <http://www.le.fws.gov/inspectors.htm> Since this is a live commodity, we require that you contact 48 hours in advance the port where you will be importing your corals in order to coordinate their clearance into the United States. <http://www.le.fws.gov/inspectors.htm>

Thank you for your cooperation in complying with our regulations that help protect fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats. Please feel free to respond to this message with any further inquiries that you may have regarding this matter.
 

Bongo Shrimp

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So I noticed a thread just like this one that someone recently started on another forum about some alleged JDWZ that he bought and a guy in japan posted this:
They're very unlikely to be Japanese. I live in Japan and zoas like that are rare to the point of being non-existent (starting to appear). They're more likely to have come from Vietnam. Exporting coral from Japan is, AFAIK, very difficult.


...
 

BlueWaterTropicals

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So I noticed a thread just like this one that someone recently started on another forum about some alleged JDWZ that he bought and a guy in japan posted this:



...

What part of Japan? Its a pretty big country, Its like saying to somebody from British Columbia Canada "Hey I have a friend named George from Ontario Canada, do you know him?"
 

BlueWaterTropicals

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It's not really like that^


But yeah he lives in Tokyo. No I don't know him. I live in Michigan.

Yeah it is... Tokyo is over 1000 miles away from the tropical reefs. but anyways...

Its established now that Japan Zoa's are perfectly LEGAL. Its established that they DO NOT require permits.
 

BlueWaterTropicals

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This needs to be a "sticky" on here....

Here is what the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service had to say:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the importation of corals from Japan that will require clearance by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Our mission is, working with others, to conserve, protect and enhance fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people.

If you intend to import these corals for commercial purposes, consistent with our definition of commercial, regulations contained in Title 50, of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 14.91, require that you must obtain an import/export license prior to engaging in business as an importer or exporter of wildlife or wildlife products. The license is valid for one year from the date of issuance and costs $100.00. In addition, as an import/export license holder, you must pay inspection fees for each wildlife shipment imported or exported under the license. For information on inspection fees and how to calculate the inspection fees that you will be required to pay, please visit our website at: Download the Law Enforcement Annual Report <http://www.fws.gov/le/AboutLE/2010InspectionFees.htm>

Any wildlife shipment would be considered commercial if the shipment is being imported or exported " related to the offering for sale or resale, purchase, trade, barter, or the actual or intended transfer in the pursuit of gain or profit, of any item of wildlife and includes the use of any wildlife article as an exhibit for the purpose of soliciting sales."

You can view our complete definition of commercial at the following website: Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: <http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2a9652dc6b37e04aa0e7360c424f07e5&rgn=div8&view=text&node=50:1.0.1.2.8.1.7.4&idno=50>

You can find the application for an import/export license on our website at the following address: http://www.fws.gov/forms/3_200_3.pdf <http://www.fws.gov/forms/3_200_3.pdf>

If you are not importing these corals for commercial purposes, consistent with our definition of commercial, you do not have to apply for an import/export license. However, you may still have to pay inspection fees depending on the species involved. If you import corals that are not protected by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES), an inspection fee of $56 will apply. However, if you import corals that are protected by CITES, an inspection fee of $112 will apply. For information on inspection fees and how to calculate the inspection fees that you may be required to pay, please visit our website at: Download the Law Enforcement Annual Report <http://www.fws.gov/le/AboutLE/2010InspectionFees.htm>

An import/export license only authorizes the importation or exportation of wildlife or wildlife products in general terms. Please be advised that this license is in addition to, and not in place of, any other licenses or permits required for protected species of wildlife.

Corals in the Order Zoantharia are not protected however, you should be aware that other species of corals, and in particular, stony corals, in the Order Scleractinia, are protected under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). CITES is an international agreement between governments. Its aim is to ensure that international trade in specimens of wild animals and plants does not threaten their survival. The species covered by CITES are listed in three appendices according to the degree of protection they need. Appendix I includes species threatened with extinction. Trade in specimens of these species is permitted only in exceptional circumstances. Appendix II includes species not necessarily threatened with extinction, but for which trade must be controlled in order to avoid overutilization that may threaten them with extinction. Appendix III contains species that are protected in at least one country, which has asked other CITES Party countries for assistance in controlling the trade in that species. We recommend that you check the CITES website at:Appendices I, II and III to determine if the coral species that you wish to import are protected by CITES. <http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml>

If so, you must obtain a valid CITES export permit issued by the CITES Management Authority in Japan in order to import those CITES-listed coral species into the United States. You can find contact information for the Japanese CITES Management Authority on the CITES website at: National Contact Database <http://www.cites.org/cms/index.php/lang-en/component/ncd/?country=JP> <http://www.cites.org/cms/index.php/lang-en/component/ncd/?country=JP>

Whether or not these corals that you wish to import are protected by CITES, as you prepare to import these corals into the United States, you must complete Form 3-177, Declaration for Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife. You can find this form on our website at the following address: Forms available in .pdf format through the Office of Law Enforcement This form is not difficult to complete, although you must provide the scientific name for each species of coral that you wish to import. <http://www.fws.gov/le/ImpExp/faqs.htm>

Please have this form completed and have it, any required Japanese CITES export permit, a copy of your import/export license, if applicable, and these corals available for inspection as you prepare to import them into the United States.

You must import your corals at a designated port. You can find a list of designated ports and contact information for those ports on our website at the following address: FWS Law Enforcement Designated Ports <http://www.le.fws.gov/inspectors.htm> Since this is a live commodity, we require that you contact 48 hours in advance the port where you will be importing your corals in order to coordinate their clearance into the United States. <http://www.le.fws.gov/inspectors.htm>

Thank you for your cooperation in complying with our regulations that help protect fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats. Please feel free to respond to this message with any further inquiries that you may have regarding this matter.
 

Bongo Shrimp

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[Sigh...] I still have no proof. :sad:

BTW he is closer than we are and there are tons and tons of aquarium shops in the mega huge city that is Tokyo. Until I get proof I am much more inclined to believe what he is saying true. (at least about the part where he usually doesn't see zoas like these IN JAPAN!)
 
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BlueWaterTropicals

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[Sigh...] I still have no proof. :sad:

BTW he is closer than we are and there are tons and tons of aquarium shops in the mega huge city that is Tokyo. Until I get proof I am much more inclined to believe what he is saying true. (at least about the part where he usually doesn't see zoas like these IN JAPAN!)

Does he shop in Okinawa, Miyako or Ishigaki? Coral selection would be a lot better there then it would be in Tokyo. Also, coral exporters are more inclined to export their nicer corals because they can make more money on them. (food for thought)
 

BlueWaterTropicals

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drainbamage

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[Sigh...] I still have no proof. :sad:

BTW he is closer than we are and there are tons and tons of aquarium shops in the mega huge city that is Tokyo. Until I get proof I am much more inclined to believe what he is saying true. (at least about the part where he usually doesn't see zoas like these IN JAPAN!)

I would take it at face value and believe the guy (though it's just as possible he's a drag queen from Cuba that somehow gets their jollies on reefing forums, the internetz is a great thing :tongue: ) but I think what he's posted is also what's maybe causing such a confusion, at least by the time that all the info trickles across the pacific. It's not unlikely that Japan imposes restrictions on what can be sold within its borders. Similarly Hawaii and California (and presumably other states, just familiar with those two) don't allow you to keep native animals as pets. The rationale is to protect the native animals from over-collection by preventing everyone from just snorkeling out to the kelp forests and snatching a baby garibaldi. However outside of california you can buy these fish for your aquariums.
Considering USFAW seems to consider it a non-issue, but all info from Japan states Japan considers it a huge issue for selling in Japan (even the article notes the extreme difficulty of moving between prefectures) it's highly possible that we're all mixing up two different issues-JDZ being sold in Japan, and JDZ being exported for sale elsewhere.

At the end of the day I think we all have about the same amount of proof :sad:
 

chappy

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[Sigh...] I still have no proof. :sad:

BTW he is closer than we are and there are tons and tons of aquarium shops in the mega huge city that is Tokyo. Until I get proof I am much more inclined to believe what he is saying true. (at least about the part where he usually doesn't see zoas like these IN JAPAN!)

seriously you are taking the word of a guy from japan on teh nets
i guess then i am an expert on everything texas because i am from texas
looks to me like you are arguing for sake of arguing
 

Bongo Shrimp

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Hey Texas-

I'm not arguing, I'm asking and discussing. And that's kind of rude and unfair of you. There's no reason not to take his word for it. He lives there and claims to have first hand experience with this subject. I never said his word was law but it is pretty good compared to the zero proof anyone else has provided. It sure would be better to have real proof but until then there's no reason to discard his statement. I posted his statement simply for the sake of contributing to this thread and for furthering discussion on the topic.

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute?
 

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