Kalk/Vinegar ...ATO

msujohn

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I have a 90 gallon tank (with a 30 gallon sump). I currently use about 1 tbsp. of kalk per gallon of water in my ATO (in total I have a 5 gallon ATO - so I add about 5 tbsp. of Kalk in total). I am currently struggling to keep my nitrates below 10 or 15. I'd like to try adding vinegar into my ATO as well to see if this can help reduce my nitrates and improve some of my coral colors. I hoping that I can try this before going the doser route (not a lot of room in my sump). So, what concerns would I have with adding some vinegar into my ATO/Kalk solution? How much should I add per gallon or 5 gallons into my ATO? Any other watch out's or words of advice. I currently keep my Alk at 8 to 8.5, CA at 410 and Mag at 1300. I do run GFO/Carbon in a doser if that matters at all.
 

Kyle Rinker

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe vinegar is not stable after so long when used in a mixed reservoir like in an ATO with kalk.

Also, I believe the maximum amount of kalk you can disolve in water is 2 tsp which means you are using 50% more than can be dissolved. It will just settle to the bottom of your ATO reservoir.
 

cmcoker

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You can use vinegar in you ATO with kalk, I have done it on my previous setups. It will actually cause a bit more kalk to dissolve as well, so be careful with the amount of kalk you are using currently, I'd expect your alkalinity to rise with the addition of vinegar to your ATO.
I'd suggest reading through Randy's articles in kalk if you haven't already
 
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msujohn

msujohn

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Thanks. I have read his articles a few times. Should a start out with using 3 tsp and 45 mls of vinegar? Does the ratio always have to be 1 to 15? One negative the article mentions is it reduces oxygen. How can I resolve that?
 

cmcoker

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Thanks. I have read his articles a few times. Should a start out with using 3 tsp and 45 mls of vinegar? Does the ratio always have to be 1 to 15? One negative the article mentions is it reduces oxygen. How can I resolve that?
I did not start with that amount of vinegar, I actually never got up that high, I used about 1/2 cup in a 9g reservoir if I tried to use more id get a bacterial bloom of white slime in the sump .
I think I would clean the sediment out of your reservoir, use 2 tsp kalk per gallon and add maybe 20ml of vinegar total and see how you do.. Monitor alkalinity and watch for bacterial bloom, increase vinegar as you can up to 45ml/g.
Start low and increase as you see results, nothing good happens fast and all that
 

cmcoker

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Oh and about oxygen, I think if you start slow with the vinegar you should be ok. Take a look at the carbon dosing article
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium
From it:
vinegar_sm.jpg

If you use this as a guideline, use you tank volume and how many days your ATO lasts you to get a starting dose. Then increase as needed. Biggest thing is to watch for bacterial blooms, that's what's really gonna suck oxygen from your system.
You are running protein skimmer right?
I wouldn't carbon dose without one...
 
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msujohn

msujohn

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I did not start with that amount of vinegar, I actually never got up that high, I used about 1/2 cup in a 9g reservoir if I tried to use more id get a bacterial bloom of white slime in the sump .
I think I would clean the sediment out of your reservoir, use 2 tsp kalk per gallon and add maybe 20ml of vinegar total and see how you do.. Monitor alkalinity and watch for bacterial bloom, increase vinegar as you can up to 45ml/g.
Start low and increase as you see results, nothing good happens fast and all that

Maybe I don't understand or didn't explain correctly. In 5 gallon ato, I was going to start with this 3 tsp kalk and 45ml's of vinegar in total ( not per gallon). That is actually less kalk. than I currently use (I put 5 tsp in the 5 gallons or 1 tsp/ gallon). Is that good?
 
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msujohn

msujohn

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Oh and about oxygen, I think if you start slow with the vinegar you should be ok. Take a look at the carbon dosing article
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium
From it:
vinegar_sm.jpg

If you use this as a guideline, use you tank volume and how many days your ATO lasts you to get a starting dose. Then increase as needed. Biggest thing is to watch for bacterial blooms, that's what's really gonna suck oxygen from your system.
You are running protein skimmer right?
I wouldn't carbon dose without one...

Yes I have a reef octopus skimmer. My 5 gallon ato lasts about 3 days, so I add roughly 1.5 gallons per day. So if I added the 45 mls of vinegar in my ato that would equal roughly 15 mls per day. Probably a little high to start. Correct?
 

cmcoker

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Maybe I don't understand or didn't explain correctly. In 5 gallon ato, I was going to start with this 3 tsp kalk and 45ml's of vinegar in total ( not per gallon). That is actually less kalk. than I currently use (I put 5 tsp in the 5 gallons or 1 tsp/ gallon). Is that good?
The saturation point of kalk is 2 tsp/g. Right now that's all you can get to dissolve and what your tank has been getting. Adding the vinegar will allow more to dissolve into solution, so I believe it would raise your alkalinity if you are adding more than the saturation dose to the ATO once you start the vinegar. That's why I suggested 2tsp/g.

More than that is fine if you are looking to increase alkalinity on your system, but I probably wouldnt jump straight to 3tsp/g on the first go.

Edit - Ha I still misread it, you are fine with 3 tsp per reservoir. Sorry. I would probably stick with the current amount of kalk you are using so long as it is below the saturation point. Don't want alk dropping either (unless you do want it lower)
 
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msujohn

msujohn

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The saturation point of kalk is 2 tsp/g. Right now that's all you can get to dissolve and what your tank has been getting. Adding the vinegar will allow more to dissolve into solution, so I believe it would raise your alkalinity if you are adding more than the saturation dose to the ATO once you start the vinegar. That's why I suggested 2tsp/g.

More than that is fine if you are looking to increase alkalinity on your system, but I probably wouldnt jump straight to 3tsp/g on the first go.

Edit - Ha I still misread it, you are fine with 3 tsp per reservoir. Sorry. I would probably stick with the current amount of kalk you are using so long as it is below the saturation point. Don't want alk dropping either (unless you do want it lower)

Thanks I just wanted to make sure.
 

cmcoker

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Yes I have a reef octopus skimmer. My 5 gallon ato lasts about 3 days, so I add roughly 1.5 gallons per day. So if I added the 45 mls of vinegar in my ato that would equal roughly 15 mls per day. Probably a little high to start. Correct?
You are correct, I'd probably start with 10mls vinegar. Chart indicates 3.2ml per day to start on a 100g tank. I'd use that and just multiply dose by 3 as you go along until you see desired results, backing off if any bacterial blooms.

You'll probably notice your skimmer picking up production, at least I did so just be sure to keep an eye on it as well if it's not draining to a larger reservoir
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe vinegar is not stable after so long when used in a mixed reservoir like in an ATO with kalk.

As long as you do not add so much that you neutralize the pH in the limewater, it is stable due to the inability of bacteria to grow at pH 12+. :)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I hoping that I can try this before going the doser route (not a lot of room in my sump). So, what concerns would I have with adding some vinegar into my ATO/Kalk solution? .

No concerns in particular. It's a fine plan as long as you do not add too much vinegar to the limewater. :)
 

miyags

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I'm confused, You wanted to carbon dose vinegar to lower nitrates. And not add more Alk to your system right?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I'm confused, You wanted to carbon dose vinegar to lower nitrates. And not add more Alk to your system right?

If that is the intent, then adding vinegar to the same limewater would seem a reasonable way to go. :)
 

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