Lighting spectra, Photosynthesis, and You

  1. jedimasterben

    jedimasterben Bubble coral sting good

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    I know, and this thread has gotten away from its topic several times now lol. If you look at the data we have now, anything you choose is the correct one.
     
  2. Gwitness

    Gwitness Well-Known Member

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    Haha I gotcha! And yeah this thread is great, but some of these comments have confused the crap out of me now!! one info says red light isn't bad and then someone sends a link about red being bad! Haha
     
  3. jedimasterben

    jedimasterben Bubble coral sting good

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    If you read the link, lighting a tank with incredible intensity of solely 660nm light (to the order of 256µmol of PAR) is detrimental to the health of one strain of Stylophora pistillata - it doesn't say anything other than that, and neither does the peer-reviewed data published to PLOS ONE, which is what the article was supposed to summarize.
     
  4. Gonzalez0324

    Gonzalez0324 Well-Known Member

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    hey i have a question. i have a 48x18x24 75g tank with 2 hydra 52. i don't know how to set up my lights in order to have that nice dark blue without compromising the health of my corals. i have some LPS and SPS. I was under the impression that the deep blue was the beneficial one for the corals, but as i read ur article and based in the info, the good "" blue is the royal blue and like you mentioned that gives it a windex sort of color in the tank. so do you have any advice as to what percentage is should have the royal blue, deep red, and violet (being that those are the 3 main colors right ?) I'm new to the hobby so any help with the appreciated. thanks
     
  5. jedimasterben

    jedimasterben Bubble coral sting good

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    Like mentioned above, any setting you choose is the correct one. Growth happens across the entire visible light spectrum, with short wavelengths having the most photosynthetic activity.
     
  6. KologneKoral

    KologneKoral Active Member

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    Why so aggressive about this report. This supports what we have know for a long time, but no one was able to re-document and expand upon since Dana Riddle's original work. Yes, red light is potentially problematic for corals. As with any poison, the dosing makes the difference. And we seem to have an interesting mechanism at work.

    There is no need to remove the red spectrum from our lighting, but it is simply not required by the corals, which we knew. It may help in certain pigment production and have an effect on metabolism, which is clearly confirmed by the study. When out of balance to other available wavelengths (specifically blue 450nm), it will kill the coral. We knew this, but hadn't defined the mechanism. Now we know it is a trigger created by the spectrum, which induces a change in the zooxanthellae populations. Too much red spectrum and the zooxanthellae cannot reproduce and die off, as well as the coral trying to reduce the amount of zooxanthellae to prevent further damage.

    Clearly, the adaptation period we give our corals is key in allowing any given coral to deal with a new light spectrum. OK, nothing really new, but now much better defined and understood.

    And, let's be real, although S. pistillata was the species used in this work, and then only a single clone, other studies used other species and had the same result. This is clearly a basic mechanism of corals and would seem to be particularly important for reef flat species. This ability of the coral to know where it is growing allows it to take best advantage of the situation. If not for this ability, then corals would be much more specialised and I doubt we would be able to maintain aquariums as we currently do. The corals would be much too spectrum specific. S. pistillata is found over a very wide range of depths.

    Further studies acroos the spectrum would be interesting to see which corals and pigments respond to which wavelengths at at what intensity. Until now we have tended to overlight our corals and heavily in the blue spectrum, which promotes certain pigments and supports the human aesthetic. Clearly there is more to learn and manipulate in order to produce a variety of results. I would like to see some work dedicated to yellow pigments, which tend to be overwhlemed by GFPs in tanks, thus becoming a lime tone.

    Still lots to learn.

    Jamie
     
  7. FL_Reefer

    FL_Reefer Well-Known Member

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    Subscribed, I really want to read this just don't have time now, lol
     
  8. flowflezy

    flowflezy Well-Known Member

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    Wow lots of info
     
  9. TJ's Reef

    TJ's Reef Well-Known Member R2R Excellence Award

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    flowflezy, thanks for revising this thread again. Even though the way original research document above provided by Ben is fairly old the pertinent information is still quite valid. Part of what frustrates me to no end on these LED lighting topic threads is the constant regurgitation of miss information on the necessity of broad spectrum including Reds and Greens. The internet and Forums like R2R can be such great educational tools if one is already educated enough to distinguish good facts from bad opinions. Hopefully this thread will stay resurrected for the long haul

    Cheers, Todd
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2014
  10. SantaMonica

    SantaMonica Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsors Toys For Kids 2016

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    For those interested in growing macros or building scrubbers, here is my favorite spectrum graph:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. jedimasterben

    jedimasterben Bubble coral sting good

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    That's just a graph for chlorophyll a. There is a lot more to it than that. The best growth I've ever seen from a scrubber was from using four 660nm Rebels, four 445nm Rebel ES, four 430nm LEDgroupbuy hyper violet, and two 2700K Rebel ES.
     
  12. jasmine.rave

    jasmine.rave Member

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    Hi jadimasterben. Your point of view is very reasonable and professional, and I also agree that Maxspect is the best LED aquarium light in the current market. Do you think some bulb or linear work good on saltwater plant? Full spectrum is important, but do you think the ratio also matters?
     
  13. jedimasterben

    jedimasterben Bubble coral sting good

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    Plants are a little different than corals. They contain chlorophylls a and b (not a and c like corals) and need quite a bit more red light for best results. If it is for an unseen refugium, mixing 660nm deep red, 450nm royal blue, and warm white LEDs in a ~4:1:1 ratio seems to give the best results for me. If it's a display refugium or a display tank, then you'll want it to be primarily warm white and royal blue, with only a few deep reds as it will overpower the other colors significantly.
     
  14. mcarroll

    mcarroll Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member

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    It sounds like, in general, corals have adapted not to need red light.
     
  15. jasmine.rave

    jasmine.rave Member

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    Thank you! Now I know why one of my customer asked particularly for royal blue and white light!

    Could you tell me your comment on this ration of LED 150watt aquarium light directly?
    S150.jpg
     
  16. jedimasterben

    jedimasterben Bubble coral sting good

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    Corals use chlorophyll for photosynthesis, which absorbs red light. If you have evidence to support that chlorophyll does not absorb red light, please present it.

    I'll send you a PM, as this isn't much the thread for that.
     
  17. mcarroll

    mcarroll Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member

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    Please Present It?
    In general, corals live at depth and have adapted not to need red light. Not sure about your request. I merely commented that your posting about the different chlorophylls and corals' lack of "B" also suggested the same.

    Chlorophyll
    Technically the dinoflagellates use chlorophyll for photosynthesis - not the corals - and that's important because there's some sophisticated symbiosis in between the two that shouldn't be glossed over. Good link.

    And while chlorophyll absorbs red light, corals have made lots of adaptations to deal with red light because it can be bad and harmful. I don't think you can really say that corals use red light for themselves in any way - and they seem to be able to make-do without it.

    But we've long known that corals are adaptable to nearly whatever light we put over them....as long as there's sufficient intensity and time allowed for adaptation. If someone thinks that redder or greener or purpler corals look better than naturalistic colorations, then the corals can probably deal with that. I just don't want to confuse things by saying such an environment is "better" or "preferred" so far as the corals are concerned.

    The Report
    Though it wasn't the point of the report someone mentioned earlier, the report does indicate one thing corals "use" red light for: An indicator of high-irradiance - a signal for the coral to throw up the light-shields. I know you've suggested this as a theoretical pathway to getting some pigments expressed, but has this panned out in practice yet as far as anyone has documented? Any links specific to this?

    -Matt

    P.S. I updated my post #24 in this thread since the R2R blog is gone....taking my pics along with it. Pics are now posted here.
     
  18. Squamosa

    Squamosa Well-Known Member

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    Here is some Japanese software posted By Koji Wada on his facebook site, enabling the blending of different wavelengths of light based on the spectral absorbances of different coral pigments.

    SPECTRA
     
  19. eagle

    eagle Well-Known Member

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    Great post mcarroll. I have read these threads and just shake my head. Guess I've been too lazy to find the links to the articles I've read lol. Thank you for posting some links. There's an older advanced Aquarist I read a long time ago that showed a study of growth rates under 20,000k, 14,000k, 10,000k, and 6500k. 20,000k had the best growth. 14,000 and 6500 were close together. 10,000k was by far the worst. Then they broke it down in the amount of red light each color temp had. Of course 10,000k has the most. So I've always believed the red stunts growth. I'm no scientist but the studies done are pretty cut and dry. Red seems to be great for algae and dino's. I think some people just want their tank to look a certain way which is fine, but I think it's been shown in plenty of studies that you get slower growth to necrosis to death depending on how much red you have.
     
  20. Sangheili

    Sangheili Well-Known Member

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    This is awesome. Great find Squamosa. Only wish it had Luxeon-M diodes in it (so I could more accurately recreate my ATI Powermodule).
     

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