Low PAR increase photosynthesis?

[Marquiseo]

I still have them on my phone, I was sitting stage left. Its all about balance. I will say I still find it interesting you don't see this video in the questions about flow threads.

Yeah that is true. It should be in all threads about lighting, flow, and alkalinity. Everyone focuses on one of the three instead of all at three at once.

 

[bios]

So few people actually measure their lights and even fewer weigh their corals to determine growth.....plus there are so many more factors than light at play, especially at the extremes of high and low light.

I can tell you that I run two tanks of mostly the same stony corals. One gets about 40,000-50,000 lux from a 27" Maxspect Razor. The other tank gets about 10,000 lux from a DIY fixture. All measurements at the water surface.

Corals grow pretty well in both tanks....if they grow faster or slower in one of the tanks, it's almost imperceptible. My gut says the brighter tank grows faster though.

Hi Mc have you observed th tissue and scheleton of the corals with high par respect the one with low par
Is more tin and fragile at touch
This my experience probably I'm wrong

 

[mcarroll]

Hi Mc have you observed th tissue and scheleton of the corals with high par respect the one with low par
Is more tin and fragile at touch
This my experience probably I'm wrong

I can't say I've paid specific attention to that, and I don't frag very often. But going from memory I don't think there has been a dramatic difference. I will pay attention next time I'm in the tank now!

 

[bios]

I n my opinion I consider the system as an athlete where
Light is the doping system
Training is the flow
Nutrients and elements proteins amino end ecc for the rebuilt of muscles
Or the growth of corals

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Hi Mc have you observed th tissue and scheleton of the corals with high par respect the one with low par
Is more tin and fragile at touch
This my experience probably I'm wrong

In my limited experience no. There's more trouble Ive noticed in fragile skeleton when cal/alk is low. Its possible that if Photosynthesis is high, and flow and alk/cal is low there could be problems. I am trying to pay attention to this with several acros, stylos and a ponape, as well as several gorgs. I have two colonis of the Ponape birdsnest. one at the top and one on the bottom. Im noticing only growth rate and Pattern differences.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Light, flow, and alk is the topic, but what about the correlation between light, flow, alk, and particulates?
I can't say I've seen higher growth is less light, though I've seen comparable growth by the introduction of a ton of "food" when the overall is par is lesser than what was settled on for light intensity.
Though in all scenarios you're still just aiming for an unknown. My corals don't speak to me and tell me where they're from geographically nor which adjustments they like best. Some even take weeks to show any sort of change visible to the naked eye.

 

[bios]

from some moths cause a trouble i frag an acro Aussie and glued it under very different condition first high flow very low par I've not a par meter but it is under shadow of other coral second high par it is in the middle under a group of razor ,flow its ok third other site with lps so medium par
Difference are first grow at the base and is a dark green but very hard to frag second is very yellow don't grow at the base but on the tip and is very fragile third yellow citrus grow at bases and something on tips

 

[mcarroll]

I've not a par meter

Can you pick up an inexpensive "LX-1010B" lux meter, or a similar one? I paid less than US$15 for mine, but it was direct from China. Dunno if that makes a difference. Any light meter is better than no light meter.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

from some moths cause a trouble i frag an acro Aussie and glued it under very different condition first high flow very low par I've not a par meter but it is under shadow of other coral second high par it is in the middle under a group of razor ,flow its ok third other site with lps so medium par
Difference are first grow at the base and is a dark green but very hard to frag second is very yellow don't grow at the base but on the tip and is very fragile third yellow citrus grow at bases and something on tips

thats interesting.

 

[bios]

For at base I intend encrusting
Yes I will do mc

 

[Salty1962]

Can you pick up an inexpensive "LX-1010B" lux meter, or a similar one? I paid less than US$15 for mine, but it was direct from China. Dunno if that makes a difference. Any light meter is better than no light meter.

Do you use yours under water? If so, how do you keep water from getting into it?
Thx

 

[mcarroll]

I do not.

But folks here have sealed the sensor in a plastic sandwich bag and had luck just zip-tying for a seal.

Readings seemed sane too....I was surprised.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Do you use yours under water? If so, how do you keep water from getting into it?
Thx

dont really need to. If like a 4 tube t5 your giving 600 par on the top of a 24in deep tank your ok. if your going with a deeper tank (or higher par in general) you want more par to send it deeper to the sand.
Milwaukee makes a $75 submersible.

 

[Salty1962]

dont really need to. If like a 4 tube t5 your giving 600 par on the top of a 24in deep tank your ok. if your going with a deeper tank (or higher par in general) you want more par to send it deeper to the sand.
Milwaukee makes a $75 submersible.

My tank has 2x XR30 and 1x XR15 G.3 Pros. So I have allot of room to go either way and just trying to get a hold on my par. Having trouble getting it where I want it thus the reason about reading under water. I also have a few horizontal shelves I want the reading on. I'll look for the Milwaukee submersible.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

My tank has 2x XR30 and 1x XR15 G.3 Pros. So I have allot of room to go either way and just trying to get a hold on my par. Having trouble getting it where I want it thus the reason about reading under water. I also have a few horizontal shelves I want the reading on. I'll look for the Milwaukee submersible.

understood. Thats just the basic concept I was outlining. Providing a field of light at the top of the tank at a specific intensity.
What you and others will note while , esp if you look at meleves par technique(very well written) intensities will vary based on proximity to reflective and non reflective surfaces. Thus the dissimilar reading at the same depth. esp on MH and T5.

 

[Centerline]

No, Ive done the same. One reason i advocate light and measuring it even with lux, is exactly that. folks under powering the corals and having high nutrints. the kessil 160 on a 29 biocube is a preyy classic example. Most dont want to go over a % number, when in fact 100% is nothing comparatively. esp when the gee a "what % do you use" from another user with already low nutrints.

And apparently its not just too much biological activity from coral but also from bacteria and algae. I believe that you were one of those that advised me when I was freaking out. The part I probably left out was how much light I was hitting the tank with. One of the most successful tanks I have ever had was a 180 with 3 250 mhs and a couple of URI VHO bulbs. The MHs were a good 18" above the water being ran for 10 hrs a day and the VHOs for 12. Not a lot of light compared to my 18" deep 80 with two 250s and 4 t5s. I may have to go score a lux meter now.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

And apparently its not just too much biological activity from coral but also from bacteria and algae. I believe that you were one of those that advised me when I was freaking out. The part I probably left out was how much light I was hitting the tank with. One of the most successful tanks I have ever had was a 180 with 3 250 mhs and a couple of URI VHO bulbs. The MHs were a good 18" above the water being ran for 10 hrs a day and the VHOs for 12. Not a lot of light compared to my 18" deep 80 with two 250s and 4 t5s. I may have to go score a lux meter now.

wow thats pretty interesting. I think it draws us to conversation of the use of the meter as a measurement of another parameter that can be manipulated, like the others, to achieve and end result, rather than focusing a set number. Its a lot more the why I advocate the use of a lux meter is a par meter isnt available. An API kit does work if you understand the limitations.

 

[Centerline]

wow thats pretty interesting. I think it draws us to conversation of the use of the meter as a measurement of another parameter that can be manipulated, like the others, to achieve and end result, rather than focusing a set number. Its a lot more the why I advocate the use of a lux meter is a par meter isnt available. An API kit does work if you understand the limitations.

I have a par meter via apex but unless I'm mistaken a lux meter gives a better overall picture and doesn't misrepresent the impact of the leds?

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I have a par meter via apex but unless I'm mistaken a lux meter gives a better overall picture and doesn't misrepresent the impact of the leds?

Not sure about the LED issues with a LUX meter (which I do know is an issue for PAR meters), but it can misrepresent the useful spectrum if you don't have the correct conversion factor for converting LUX to PAR for your particular light setup. In my research on LUX vs. PAR, my understanding is that LUX is quite useful (FAR better than "eyeballing it" ), but ultimately PAR is still a more useful value. There has been an aversion to LUX in the hobby historically due to it being the measure of light both in and outside the spectrum of usefulness to your corals/photosynthetic critters (and therefore potentially misleading since it doesn't just measure what is useful)...but IMO this fear is often a bit exaggerated since the fixtures we use at this point are all designed to be focused on delivering light within the PAR spectrum (at least primarily).

I prefer PAR, but I'm good with LUX measurements as long as conversion factors are considered when talking about LUX.

 

[kevlow]

I also think the leader on this thread got it wrong.....the idea is not to increase photosynthesis at all. If anything you can see that corals have no trouble getting enough light to photosynthesize, and that's where the danger is. Photosynthesis is destructive. So they make a point of protecting themselves in lots of ways. If we go around hacking the system to boost photosynthesis, they are going to be under more stress and suffer additional damage compared to what is normal.

I am with you on not increasing photosynthesis. There is even a line of thought that Manganese is used to inhibit photosynthesis.
Zooxanthellae algae are brown algae that use photosynthesis to grow/reproduce. This is a symbiotic relationship with the coral. NOAA states that " Most importantly, zooxanthellae supply the coral with glucose, glycerol, and amino acids, which are the products of photosynthesis. The coral uses these products to make proteins, fats, and carbohydrates, and produce calcium carbonate".

If we interfere with this process to color up a brown acro, we are reducing the Zooanthellae by either starving the algae [unl system] or interfereing with photosynthesis.
But if the zooanthellae are not present to provide for the coral then the coral must get it directly from the tank. This is why we have high fish populations, then feed our fish very heavy, dose coral foods, use aminos etc. etc.

With all this in mind, and reduced zooanthellae, I see the topic of low/high par like this:

Low Par/ High nutrients= LPS Heaven. But for acros , it usually means tan or brown color with growth because of the nutrients.
Low Par/ Low nutrients= Better balance with some color and allows for the use of higher alk to boost growth.
Higher Par/ Low nutrients= Bleached starved corals. You are stepping on the accelerator but the motor is getting no fuel. The coral has no algae for protection from the light and no energy to form it's own pigments. Throw in higher alk and you speed the process up even faster. The acros appear pale and bland at best and show little to no growth.
Higher Par/ Some nutrients= The corals are forced to form their own pigments and have the needed energy/food to do so and to sustain growth. Photosynthesis is greatly reduced but it doesn't matter. The coral is not depending on the algae for it's food and provision source. I like to run a little bit lower alk [NSW] to slow down the process and to be a little more under control. This cause a little slower growth, but is a safe trade off for control and color.

The last group I stay away from;
High Par, High Nutrients, High Alk. I see this as a high energy metabolism system. A runaway freight train on the razor's edge. The guys who can pull this off, I salute you. You are SPS Gods. High color and fast growth.