Low PAR increase photosynthesis?

[Daniel@R2R]

I am with you on not increasing photosynthesis. There is even a line of thought that Manganese is used to inhibit photosynthesis.
Zooxanthellae algae are brown algae that use photosynthesis to grow/reproduce. This is a symbiotic relationship with the coral. NOAA states that " Most importantly, zooxanthellae supply the coral with glucose, glycerol, and amino acids, which are the products of photosynthesis. The coral uses these products to make proteins, fats, and carbohydrates, and produce calcium carbonate".

If we interfere with this process to color up a brown acro, we are reducing the Zooanthellae by either starving the algae [unl system] or interfereing with photosynthesis.
But if the zooanthellae are not present to provide for the coral then the coral must get it directly from the tank. This is why we have high fish populations, then feed our fish very heavy, dose coral foods, use aminos etc. etc.

With all this in mind, and reduced zooanthellae, I see the topic of low/high par like this:

Low Par/ High nutrients= LPS Heaven. But for acros , it usually means tan or brown color with growth because of the nutrients.
Low Par/ Low nutrients= Better balance with some color and allows for the use of higher alk to boost growth.
Higher Par/ Low nutrients= Bleached starved corals. You are stepping on the accelerator but the motor is getting no fuel. The coral has no algae for protection from the light and no energy to form it's own pigments. Throw in higher alk and you speed the process up even faster. The acros appear pale and bland at best and show little to no growth.
Higher Par/ Some nutrients= The corals are forced to form their own pigments and have the needed energy/food to do so and to sustain growth. Photosynthesis is greatly reduced but it doesn't matter. The coral is not depending on the algae for it's food and provision source. I like to run a little bit lower alk [NSW] to slow down the process and to be a little more under control. This cause a little slower growth, but is a safe trade off for control and color.

The last group I stay away from;
High Par, High Nutrients, High Alk. I see this as a high energy metabolism system. A runaway freight train on the razor's edge. The guys who can pull this off, I salute you. You are SPS Gods. High color and fast growth.

Great post award! I particularly like the summaries you've given to the different types of systems.

 

[Centerline]

I am with you on not increasing photosynthesis. There is even a line of thought that Manganese is used to inhibit photosynthesis.
Zooxanthellae algae are brown algae that use photosynthesis to grow/reproduce. This is a symbiotic relationship with the coral. NOAA states that " Most importantly, zooxanthellae supply the coral with glucose, glycerol, and amino acids, which are the products of photosynthesis. The coral uses these products to make proteins, fats, and carbohydrates, and produce calcium carbonate".

If we interfere with this process to color up a brown acro, we are reducing the Zooanthellae by either starving the algae [unl system] or interfereing with photosynthesis.
But if the zooanthellae are not present to provide for the coral then the coral must get it directly from the tank. This is why we have high fish populations, then feed our fish very heavy, dose coral foods, use aminos etc. etc.

With all this in mind, and reduced zooanthellae, I see the topic of low/high par like this:

Low Par/ High nutrients= LPS Heaven. But for acros , it usually means tan or brown color with growth because of the nutrients.
Low Par/ Low nutrients= Better balance with some color and allows for the use of higher alk to boost growth.
Higher Par/ Low nutrients= Bleached starved corals. You are stepping on the accelerator but the motor is getting no fuel. The coral has no algae for protection from the light and no energy to form it's own pigments. Throw in higher alk and you speed the process up even faster. The acros appear pale and bland at best and show little to no growth.
Higher Par/ Some nutrients= The corals are forced to form their own pigments and have the needed energy/food to do so and to sustain growth. Photosynthesis is greatly reduced but it doesn't matter. The coral is not depending on the algae for it's food and provision source. I like to run a little bit lower alk [NSW] to slow down the process and to be a little more under control. This cause a little slower growth, but is a safe trade off for control and color.

The last group I stay away from;
High Par, High Nutrients, High Alk. I see this as a high energy metabolism system. A runaway freight train on the razor's edge. The guys who can pull this off, I salute you. You are SPS Gods. High color and fast growth.

Very nicely stated! And of course I'm going to agree with this last statement as my personal experience is that although this absolutely works it also requires so much testing as to become burdensome and of course the crash is going to be expensive.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I have a par meter via apex but unless I'm mistaken a lux meter gives a better overall picture and doesn't misrepresent the impact of the leds?

I think itll give a good wider picture yes. It actually gives a better picture in some ways as the results and not skewed by color in fact, esp w led, as the colors separate and don't blend as well. I believe the apogee fix was to make the probe cover thicker to allow diffusion to help blend the color before it hits the sensor.
This is the issue in my industry when color temping with an led fixture. we diffuse the source first to avoid reading a narrow frequency,this is partly led "shimmer", the colors have been separated.
the light meter, lux/cf takes the full intensity into account, and the ball is usually much larger than par meters to read a wider slightly area. IMO, if a par meter had a 1' or 2' ball it would read much more effectively.

This is why I wear a light meter and color meter at work, but use the intensity meter more as I already understand the colors in general.

There has been an aversion to LUX in the hobby historically

Save that the 20yr old book I am reading gives the illumination in Lux with the tube combination noted. So they were already doing the mental math there. Apparently a goniopora does well under 5000 to 1000 lux with a vita lite and actinic. (prob about 100 to 200 par)

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I am with you on not increasing photosynthesis. There is even a line of thought that Manganese is used to inhibit photosynthesis.
Zooxanthellae algae are brown algae that use photosynthesis to grow/reproduce. This is a symbiotic relationship with the coral. NOAA states that " Most importantly, zooxanthellae supply the coral with glucose, glycerol, and amino acids, which are the products of photosynthesis. The coral uses these products to make proteins, fats, and carbohydrates, and produce calcium carbonate".

If we interfere with this process to color up a brown acro, we are reducing the Zooanthellae by either starving the algae [unl system] or interfereing with photosynthesis.
But if the zooanthellae are not present to provide for the coral then the coral must get it directly from the tank. This is why we have high fish populations, then feed our fish very heavy, dose coral foods, use aminos etc. etc.

With all this in mind, and reduced zooanthellae, I see the topic of low/high par like this:

Low Par/ High nutrients= LPS Heaven. But for acros , it usually means tan or brown color with growth because of the nutrients.
Low Par/ Low nutrients= Better balance with some color and allows for the use of higher alk to boost growth.
Higher Par/ Low nutrients= Bleached starved corals. You are stepping on the accelerator but the motor is getting no fuel. The coral has no algae for protection from the light and no energy to form it's own pigments. Throw in higher alk and you speed the process up even faster. The acros appear pale and bland at best and show little to no growth.
Higher Par/ Some nutrients= The corals are forced to form their own pigments and have the needed energy/food to do so and to sustain growth. Photosynthesis is greatly reduced but it doesn't matter. The coral is not depending on the algae for it's food and provision source. I like to run a little bit lower alk [NSW] to slow down the process and to be a little more under control. This cause a little slower growth, but is a safe trade off for control and color.

The last group I stay away from;
High Par, High Nutrients, High Alk. I see this as a high energy metabolism system. A runaway freight train on the razor's edge. The guys who can pull this off, I salute you. You are SPS Gods. High color and fast growth.

Great post award! I particularly like the summaries you've given to the different types of systems.

Agreed.

 

[arman]

I've noticed now days that the trend is to have high par values with our led fixtures for better coloration/growth but in reality does it really cause faster growth?

Dana riddle at macna 2016 recently discussed the correlation between light, flow and alkalinity and how they can be tweaked in order to obtain higher rates of photosynthesis.

Has anyone here experienced faster growth rates at lower par levels 100-250 with high light requiring species of sps?

In the video he mentioned that if you increase the kh you will get a good grow.But i heared that for keeping sps your kh is better to be 7 dkh!!Which one is better so?

 

[mcarroll]

Save that the 20yr old book I am reading gives the illumination in Lux with the tube combination noted. So they were already doing the mental math there.

PAR is an extremely recent form of light measurement and it's not even all that standardized.

PAR is a popular measurement in the hydroponics industry...seems to be minimally used in science documents I've read. They used lux before PAR came around though. One of the best docs I've found is from the 30's and listed compensation points for a bunch of corals in lux.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

In the video he mentioned that if you increase the kh you will get a good grow.But i heared that for keeping sps your kh is better to be 7 dkh!!Which one is better so?

My understanding is that higher alk=faster growth but less skeletal density while lower alk will be a little slower but denser/healthier growth. Maybe someone can confirm if I'm right (or possibly way off).

 

[mcarroll]

My understanding is that higher alk=faster growth but less skeletal density while lower alk will be a little slower but denser/healthier growth. Maybe someone can confirm if I'm right (or possibly way off).

I think that's a decent rule of thumb, but there are lots of other factors that can throw it off. So maybe as a rule it's not so good outside of one's own system.

In other words, all else being equal, high alk can equal less density and low could equal more.

And of course, higher and lower in this equation are totally relative. No correct numbers.

 

[mcarroll]

In the video he mentioned that if you increase the kh you will get a good grow.But i heared that for keeping sps your kh is better to be 7 dkh!!Which one is better so?

In general, stability rules over any individual number.

If you're hacking your system with carbon dosing, then you must keep alkalinity down at "normal" levels to prevent "burnt tips".

Has nothing to do with SPS or LPS, etc. Just has to do with photosynthesis and calcium carbonate skeletons.

 

[Centerline]

In the video he mentioned that if you increase the kh you will get a good grow.But i heared that for keeping sps your kh is better to be 7 dkh!!Which one is better so?

Let me suggest that 7 DKH is a bit low as there is very little wiggle room between adequate alk and disaster when your tank is growing and consuming alk at measurable levels. Perhaps something more in the range of 8ish would be a little safer. With respect to hi ALK (11-12) and growth the idea is that higher alk levels help with photosynthesis by acting as an inorganic carbon - thus more energy. It also touches on the relationship of flow and duration / intensity of light. All of these matter though using a salt like RedSea Pro will produce noticeable results by itself assuming you have reasonable lighting, flow and nutrient control to began with. I have ran my alk at 12 for years and only encountered errors when attempting to keep nutrient levels very low. Or by screwing around with additives (carbon dosing) before understanding what I was doing.

 

[Centerline]

My understanding is that higher alk=faster growth but less skeletal density while lower alk will be a little slower but denser/healthier growth. Maybe someone can confirm if I'm right (or possibly way off).

Maybe My experience has been that without a bunch of flow that is indeed the score. With a bunch of flow the corals thicken up A BUNCH. But then your looking at your fat stubby corals wondering why your corals are not bigger. I have a red planet that's about 5" long and an inch across being blasted by a couple of gyres.

 

[Centerline]

In general, stability rules over any individual number.

If you're hacking your system with carbon dosing, then you must keep alkalinity down at "normal" levels to prevent "burnt tips".

Has nothing to do with SPS or LPS, etc. Just has to do with photosynthesis and calcium carbonate skeletons.

Or absolutely killing your tank like I have before without knowing I was playing with fire - I actually did that with bio pellets when they first came out and blamed it on new LEDs

 

[Duberz]

I was at world wide corals a while back and they are running radion g4 pros on their display tanks at 45%! You will not find a better display of color and growth anywhere. They never measure par either. So I'm convinced you don't need to blast corals with high par.

 

[Centerline]

I was at world wide corals a while back and they are running radion g4 pros on their display tanks at 45%! You will not find a better display of color and growth anywhere. They never measure par either. So I'm convinced you don't need to blast corals with high par.

Yea Man, I was at WWC last Friday (1.5 hr drive for me) and was astonished to see G4s ALL over the place. That first tank (Elos deep dimension I believe) when you come in the door has such a wide variety of stuff in it (all of it hi end - all of it different) that I was a little surprised they had so much confidence in the LEDs. But they said "no problems at all". I asked them about rainbow chalice and their thoughts on keeping them under G4s and they said no problem and pointed out a wicked rainbow (not much red) in the tank that looked very healthy. They also had a bunch of ultra scoli with every color under the sun that looked just fine. So maybe I should go for it. After the experience I had with the Hydras though I'm still a little hesitant. When you look at the difference between the Hydra and G4s there isn't much aside from the HEI lenses and the addition of a single warm white. And your right bout the lighting level - probably 30% or so.

 

[mcarroll]

@Centerline don't get too caught up in all that....IMO your pick ought to be about what you like and what you can afford. It has never needed to be about comparing with world wide corals, me or anyone else. (See my sig!)

Remember: Folks that have problems with individual light systems (or a style of pump, or brand of salt, etc) that others have no trouble with have something else going on.

So just figure out your budget.
Figure out what LED style you like (flood, spot, etc).
Use a light meter to set it up.

True that's a simplification, but it's one that works - you really can't go wrong.

(There are all kinds of ways to go wrong without that last step of using a light meter though.)

 

[Centerline]

@Centerline don't get too caught up in all that....IMO your pick ought to be about what you like and what you can afford. It has never needed to be about comparing with world wide corals, me or anyone else. (See my sig!)

Remember: Folks that have problems with individual light systems (or a style of pump, or brand of salt, etc) that others have no trouble with have something else going on.

So just figure out your budget.
Figure out what LED style you like (flood, spot, etc).
Use a light meter to set it up.

True that's a simplification, but it's one that works - you really can't go wrong.

(There are all kinds of ways to go wrong without that last step of using a light meter though.)

Right on.

 

[fragit]

Great video and great thread! Thanks folks

 

[Magem]

I saw it too and very good video. Good thread.

 

[NanoDJS]

Absolutely great video ! This is the best explanation of something I have been practicing for a long time now , in respect to the dkh uptake = growth !!! I run my lights 24" inches off my water and keep about 8.5- 9.5 dkh with a mag 18 on a DB 80g , I have no filters or socks or anything just a 45 frag over 40 breeder sump setup plumbed to it from the basement with a nano eshopps skimmer in it. We regularly buy damaged corals that were traded into our lfs and "heal" them back into healthy colonies , I attribute this to keeping my parameters ^^^ like he said !!! though I still dont mess with the high dkh , as I noticed that my old salts mixed to 12 ish and I always had a "stagnant" period of growth when I would do water changes ? I have since switched to something that mixes up to 8.5 -9 and the coral couldn't be happier , its not about fancy gear , its about the right water , light , and flow . Thanks for posting !

 

[dragon99]

Ya'll mentioned WWC and it made me remember this:
http://ecotechmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/World_Wide_Corals_Coral-lab_03.pdf

"WWC's Radion schedule is unique because it is designed to provide lighting for the duration of business hours. In order to prevent over-lighting due to the extended photoperiod, the overall intensity is set lower than what would be required for a shorter photoperiod. In the Aquaculture Facility, WWC uses AquaIllumination Hydra 52HD units on their SPS run. On their other troughs which are largely soft corals, LPS and deep water SPS, they use T5 ATI Aqua Blue Specials and Blue Plus bulbs at a ratio of 3:1 per fixture. In most cases a Reef Brite HXL strip is used to supplement the T5s. The SPS aquaculture run using AI Hydra lighting receives PAR exposure in the 250-275 range, the LPS and Deep Water corals under the T5 lighting receives 80-140 PAR."

They certainly aren't blasting anything.