Metal Halide - A fading technology?

[lamzid]

It's a reef forum, and wasn't meant to be scientific. I think that is the confusion. Maybe you missed the question mark at the end of the thread title? (Thus requesting everyone's thoughts - no thesis required)

The thread was started to see what everyone's opinions were on the matter.

You coming in here guns blazing saying that what everyone else is saying is wrong because there is no science behind it comes off a bit negative. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your statements as such.

I've learned quite a good deal around camp fires, fwiw. And lab coats don't look good on someone as tall as me.

Heh guns blazing. I like that and yes I definitely admit I did. I guess I was taken back by the way you came to the conclusion and decided to ask the question. then even more so by the arguments presented for why each person feels the way they do. almost all emotional and very little fact driven. IMO.

Camp fire stories are always some of the best and most cherished stories I can recall

 

[DeathWish302]

Also, as someone else pointed out. This hobby is driven by lemmings and people who are far happier planning a new tank and piecing together the equipment more than they are when they've have a tank running succesfully for 3-4 years straight. People always get excited for the new tech and think it will solve the problems they have with their tanks. While there is no problem with keeping up and seeing what works.. There is something to be said for proven methods and giving them the time to come to fruition. I will refer to a reef builders article I have come to love...

The problem with romanticizing the reef hobby and idolizing demagogues

"So does this mean we should all run our tanks in a more rudimentary manner? Nope. Have fun with it. Go with an approach that appeals to you. Keep yourself excited and engaged. But recognize that a lot of the things you buy or modify are more for your benefit, and your fish and corals could probably care less."

Because really, anyone who is replacing their MH setups for LED isn't doing it for the corals. It's to appease our inner tech nerd or to try to fix something we think is broken(which isn't the lights) and let's not fool ourselves about that.

The problem with forums is 99.9% of all content is subjective favoritism. I like Brand XYZ salt b/c he has done me well for 11 yrs. I also won't buy 123 test kits (but did recently b/c they revamped their line).... The list goes on.

EVERYBODY should take a forum with a grain of salt. What makes sense for your situation and achieve the end goal.

I do have to say though that the way you were coming across is very similiar to a troll on another site that had to have every discussion purely scientific with no 'well that's my experience' matter. Think BeAnimal....oops, did i say that.

I do not consider advice and opinion purely scientific and some of us just want a pat on the head to know there are others' out there doing it our way.

As for lighting and equipment, you'll never pry the MH, 400W Radium, MJ mod, Gatorade GFO canister, DIY PVC endcap cleaner magnet from my dead hands. They have worked for me for many years and my own personal success are worth more than any scientific study. As any Engr will tell you, we as the Engr. can mold any experiment to meet our own agenda by manipulating the variables. Studies are only as good as the unbiased tester.

 

[lamzid]

Studies are only as good as the unbiased tester.

Exactly. Who in here isn't biased in some way? That's exactly why you need facts and quantifiable proof. If you are to claim one is trully better than the other. Otherwise it's just opinion. Now we've come full circle

 

[ronnie]

I suppose I'm just missing it, but what is your point?

 

[shred5]

Well one of the problems with led fixtures is allot come with just blue and white led combinations and thats why some people are seeing a loss of color in some sps. Red is very important color (see coral coloration articles by Dana Riddle). halides are wide spectrum bubls where leds are narrow and t-5 are also. When people started with t-5 they saw the samething and now people are ussing bulbs that peak in the reds.

Dave Polzin

 

[ksc]

I think the point is, MH is not a fading technology. And according to my par meter, my led technology is fading faster than my 250 Radiums..... Be careful who you listen to.

 

[turbo21]

I think the point is, MH is not a fading technology. And according to my par meter, my led technology is fading faster than my 250 Radiums..... Be careful who you listen to.

just wondering but can you post the measurements and specs you have referred to? I havent heard of anybody having significant par loss yet, mainly because most people havent had their led rig long enough


I think everyone needs to realize there are a million different ways to run a successful tank. There are still tons of people running vho ovly setups and having good growth and colors.

Troylee even recently setup a tank with pc lights on it to grow chalice and sps (although he hasnt posted any updates in a while?)

right now, i am running a 3 x 175 halide setup and vho actinics. i have sps, zoas, and lps and everything is fine. I just ordered a diy led kit today because i have been battling high temps forever and dont want to add a chiller. I have seen enough led setups in the last year showing good colors and growth to justify my change. Is it for everybody? probably not. if i didnt have the temp issue, i would probably stick with halides

 

[shred5]

Well without ever owning a par meter I can tell you LEDs will light anything a t5 or 250w mh will....I could tell by my corals "best test kit available" I bleached chalices on the sand all day long that were cooking under 250w radiums on pfo ballast that's the best mh combo you can get..... Here is the thing with LEDs.... I had a friend of mine that was gonna buy my fixture for his new tank but backed out because!!!!! It was deceiving he didn't like how the fixture looked dim but packed a punch.... That is the case and I think that's what most people see and think LEDs aren't enough.... I'll be the first to say I had a led tank on one side and a mh on the other... My mh looks 100 times brighter but!!!! Stuff bleaches under those dim looking LEDs in a hurry I couldn't keep anything on my frag rack over a week or it lose color by bleaching out.... I think that's where most peoples 2 cents derive from not exp.... Just remember they look dim but they pack a heck of a punch don't under estimate them....

One thing about leds not seeming as bright as halides you mentioned. One reason halides seem brighter is they bounce light all around. Halides do not have as directional reflectors as t-5 and leds put the light almost straight down. Basically halides waste allot of light and bounces it all over.. So with halides more light is hitting your eyes and makes them seem brighter.

It is kind of hard to explain but the human eye really can not tell brightness unless comparing the exact same colors. The human eye perceives white as being brighter over other colors. Bluer light will always seem dimmer than whiter light even if it is not. I work in the lighting industry and we have done test on people perception of brightness. We can actually make people believe that is brighter even though it is not by adjusting the Kelvin. Kind of like painting a room white, even though there is no more lumens in the room it sure seems like more light than if the room were painted black (disregarding light reflected into the room). Reminds me of a dog whistle, even though the human ear can not hear it does not mean it does not make a sound.

Dave Polzin

 

[GR808]

Whew, boy it got hot in here!!!!
i was just here to read different perspectives and experiences and not to see if ine technology is better than the other. Everyones situation is different and lets just respect that. What works for me may not work for you but that doesnt make mine better nor does it make yours better.
Let's keep the peace folks!!!! I enjoy this forum and would like to keep it that way.

 

[ronnie]

Whew, boy it got hot in here!!!!
i was just here to read different perspectives and experiences and not to see if ine technology is better than the other. Everyones situation is different and lets just respect that. What works for me may not work for you but that doesnt make mine better nor does it make yours better.
Let's keep the peace folks!!!! I enjoy this forum and would like to keep it that way.

+1 - Although the heat is probably from all those 400w MH.... :bigsmile:

 

[lamzid]

I suppose I'm just missing it, but what is your point?

My point is your thread is for cheerleading purposes and not in anyway meant to be productive. It's for you to generalize that since you can't sell some equipment as fast as you once did a whole technological era is coming to an end. A giant is falling so you said. The rising giant is the team you're switching over too(convenient!).

It's a somewhat curious yet inflammatory post as the question in itself and then the reason for that thought was sure to cause a stir with proponents and opponents of both techs.

You're also quite apologetic to any LED system that has issues(it water, flow something - anything! other than the lights causing colors to be drab) and unapologetic to some of the prices(cons?) that come with MH(heat or inefficencies as you called it, power draw). It's one thing to start a conversation to learn, but this was entirely something else and you've been very transparent on that reading through your replies.

In short: I'm calling you out

 

[ronnie]

Would you like a bigger stick to stir with sir?

 

[lamzid]

Your posts are plenty, thanks. Also quite ironic you call me the pot stirrer when you're the one who created this stirring thread.

 

[shred5]

just wondering but can you post the measurements and specs you have referred to? I havent heard of anybody having significant par loss yet, mainly because most people havent had their led rig long enough

Actually There have been allot of reports of led fixtures output dropping significantly in as little as a year or two.. I believe it is due to improper cooling of the leds. May also be that not all leds are created equally or some are really being over-driven. There are some really crap fixtures coming out as well as some really good fixtures.

Dave Polzin

 

[turbo21]

Dave,

Can you show me any links to any of these reports. I just have not seen the same reports, That could be just because there are so many threads about leds out there and i probably didnt see them

bob

 

[ronnie]

Your posts are plenty, thanks. Also quite ironic you call me the pot stirrer when you're the one who created this stirring thread.

Yet you are the first to truly take an issue - to heart apparently- over the thread.

I'm going to defer to the troll comment made earlier. I had hoped you would come off a bit less harsh once we cleared up that this wasn't a scientific study, but it appears that your high horse has you afraid to jump down.

 

[turbo21]

And back to the original post, I dont think that metal halide is dying, i just think it has more competition. Years ago when you wanted sps, you had to have halides. Then t-5s came along and then leds. We have more choices now than ever. There are a million tanks running a little of each and usually people only post about them when they are looking good or having success. There are tons of people out there that couldnt keep a green slimer under halides, led and t-5.
some people dont want to change because they have had great success under halides. There are still people out there using undergravel filters (paul B) If it works for you and not for someone else doesnt mean they are wrong

I am just glad we have more choices than ever

bob

 

[ronnie]

Dave,

Can you show me any links to any of these reports. I just have not seen the same reports, That could be just because there are so many threads about leds out there and i probably didnt see them

bob

I agree Bob. That is the first I've heard of it as well. I would love to see some posts or links that provide PAR numbers initially and then a year later as well, to see how well the LEDs are holding up.

Granted, there will be many variables that effect that, but in personally okay with the many generalizations that forums offer.

 

[secretreefer]

whew...glad i run a triple threat like Lee. i'm a part of each team :hammer: .

 

[shred5]

Dave,

Can you show me any links to any of these reports. I just have not seen the same reports, That could be just because there are so many threads about leds out there and i probably didnt see them

bob

I dont have any bookmarked right now.. I am also going on vactaion for a week and have not time to dig them up.. I think there was a couple in a thread on R2R not too long ago.

Dave Polzin