Microscrubbing... I'm Ready to Try It!!!

[Cruz_Arias]

FYI That book I mentioned is revised edition in 2013 and has a fairly in depth topics on CO2 and gasses. Among many other great topics of interest. I highly recommend it.

And Randy's articles are still very relevant today. Again, if you have issue with any of them he is right here on this site to discuss them with. And I'm sure he's open to that discussion.

Why are you trying to go off topic? CO2 levels directly influence pH. Not O2. That is what I was and am pointing out.

And O2 levels are independent of CO2 levels.

I am not, I stated two things.

I'm in agreement CO2 levels are mainly responsible for pH.

I stated also that in order to drive off CO2, you need to increase O2 because of gas solubility in water. Randy and I are in agreement on this. They are related very much in the home environment due to the co2 concentration we have indoors.

 

[jason2459]

Injecting air that is lower in CO2 will help lower the CO2 levels in the aquarium. O2 levels can be supersaturated.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Not injecting, Jason, not under pressure... not super saturating or changing the specific gravity of water. It's just regular aeration... nothing magical about it.

 

[jason2459]

Aeration via something like an air stone is injecting air into the water column.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Aeration via something like an air stone is injecting air into the water column.

Ummm... no. Infusing, yes, injecting, no... it's aeration, just like waves on the surf... which crushes fresh air into the water column without supersaturation...

 

[Cruz_Arias]

These photos were taken by my friend Clark Little. It shows the air stream vortices created by a wave in nature (Hawaii).

This is how mother nature infuses oxygen into the water column.

 

[jason2459]

That would be a method of injecting. But again going away from the argument. Supersaturation of O2 in surface levels of the ocean would be an effect of the large amounts of phytoplankton not waves.

We generally don't have that level in our tanks. So, increasing O2 in our tanks will not drive off CO2. Aerating with CO2 levels lower then what is in the air around the aquarium will help increase pH.

 

[jason2459]

And really, sorry to the OP as this doesn't have anything to do with microscrubbing which I have no experience with but seems to have its supporters. I can see this as a way to increase O2 levels which can be low if there's not enough flow or carbon dosing and no skimmer in place. That could be benificial. Also, the microbubbles could be a flocculant bringing anything hydrophilic off other surface into the water column to be filtered out by some other method. I'm sure these points have been mentioned many times over.

 

[john.m.cole3]

Injecting air that is lower in CO2 will help lower the CO2 levels in the aquarium. O2 levels can be supersaturated.

this statement confirms the rationale that o2 and co2 have an inverse relationship, or at least that's how i understood it

 

[john.m.cole3]

And really, sorry to the OP as this doesn't have anything to do with microscrubbing which I have no experience with but seems to have its supporters. I can see this as a way to increase O2 levels which can be low if there's not enough flow or carbon dosing and no skimmer in place. That could be benificial. Also, the microbubbles could be a flocculant bringing anything hydrophilic off other surface into the water column to be filtered out by some other method. I'm sure these points have been mentioned many times over.

No, this is a good conversation and definitely has to do with microbubbling and gets other members thinking about why we do certain things. No need for apologies man.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

That would be a method of injecting. But again going away from the argument. Supersaturation of O2 in surface levels of the ocean would be an effect of the large amounts of phytoplankton not waves.

We generally don't have that level in our tanks. So, increasing O2 in our tanks will not drive off CO2. Aerating with CO2 levels lower then what is in the air around the aquarium will help increase pH.

Once again, water can only hold so much gas under normal atmospheric conditions.
It will not supersaturate unless forced to under PRESSURE.

I have 3 science degrees... come on. Two Bachelor's and one MS... and an MBA.

And to top it off, everyday I go to work with Chemists and their Chemistry.

 

[jason2459]

Once again, water can only hold so much gas under normal atmospheric conditions.
It will not supersaturate unless forced to under PRESSURE.

I have 3 science degrees... come on. Two Bachelor's and one MS... and an MBA.

Ok and ocean surface levels is where atmospheres start yet can be supersaturated through photosynthesis and some to do with wave actions injecting air bubbles into the water column.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Ok and ocean surface levels is where atmospheres start yet can be supersaturated through photosynthesis and some to do with wave actions injecting air bubbles into the water column.

Negative. That is a supposotion and opinion. Super saturation is where the normal capacity is EXCEEDED.

In the ocean supersaturation of oxygen does not happen, why?

Because at night, during the dark cycle (kreb cycle) of plants, the phyto plankton respire.. in other words, they breathe in oxygen and expel carbon dioxide.

 

[jason2459]

Negative. That is a supposotion and opinion. Super saturation is where the normal capacity is EXCEEDED.

In the ocean supersaturation of oxygen does not happen, why?

Because at night, during the dark cycle (kreb cycle) of plants, the phyto plankton respire.. in other words, they breathe in oxygen and expel carbon dioxide.

Now you're throwing in more variables that don't disprove the ability of O2 to become supersaturated. (Which again is deviating from the original point. Driving up O2 will not directly change pH.)

If you'd like to provide some references I would love to read them.

So far, what I know and have read you are wrong.

I've provided a couple references.

Here's from another

Lecture 4 questions from Stanford University:
(4) Explain why O2 is supersaturated in surface waters. How can you calculate only the
effect of photosynthesis? Would you expect the depth profile of oxygen to follow that of
Kr?
Oxygen is supersaturated in the surface because of bubbles injection and input due to
photosynthesis. To calculate the effect of photosynthesis we need to normalize to Ar or
another refractory gas. The depth profiles of Kr and oxygen will be different since
oxygen is consumed at depth by respiration.



And a thought experiment here. Say you drive up O2 by injecting pure O2 into your tank. What process will selectively drive out just CO2? There are other gasses in seawater.

What process would stop that oxygen from just becoming supper saturated like in the ocean at some surface levels?

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Yes, lots of variables in reefing. No absolutes, my friend.

Martial and natural osmotic balance in the nature of things tend to prevent super saturation in the real world.

Everything tends towards entropy. Which means things tend to go from areas of high concentration to lower concentration.

For instance, if o2 is too high in the reef aquarium, it will tend to degas itself from the water.

The experiment you have proposed, we've tried in waste water system management many many years ago...

In brine (concentrated sea water) which is high in solute (salts etc. ) we see the primary gases... (nitrogen gas, o2, methane, h2s, carbon dioxide) depending on bio load and pollution the first gas to degas (or oxidize with other organics and metals) is oxygen.

Hence there will always be a net negative concentration of oxygen in this world.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

If you supersaturate any gas into a liquid, agitation of any sort will tend to degas any over saturated gas in the system.

A natural phenomena in our world.

Consider water as a sponge... it can only absorb so much salt before no more can dissolve. Gas acts the same way in water. There is only so much gas water can hold. And even less gas it can hold when you add other salts and solute to it... a sponge can only hold so much before water drips from it. That is the saturation limit (point)

Hope this communication has opened up more insights in water chemistry, saturation limits, gas solubility, and osmotic gas balances in water...

 

[jason2459]

You have yet to disprove anything I've said.

O2 levels in the real world, at atmospherics pressures, and with out pressurization can be supersaturated in areas of the ocean surface levels.

O2 levels are not going to directly influence pH or CO2 levels.

 

[jason2459]

this statement confirms the rationale that o2 and co2 have an inverse relationship, or at least that's how i understood it

They are independent.

Also from that Stanford lecture.

More than 95% of all gases except radon reside in the atmosphere. The atmosphere
controls the oceans gas contents for all gases except radon, CO2 and H2O

 

[jason2459]

And yes, I do agree equilibrium is always being worked on. Why drawing in air with lower CO2 then the air around the aquarium with increase pH. Which is my original point.

Drawing in O2 will make life that requires O2 to breath be happy but will not directly effect pH.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

You have yet to disprove anything I've said.

O2 levels in the real world, at atmospherics pressures, and with out pressurization can be supersaturated in areas of the ocean surface levels.

O2 levels are not going to directly influence pH or CO2 levels.

Disprove? I'm clarifying a lot of misconceptions. Lol