New tank cycling, tank bacteria, and cocktail shrimp. Live rock=no shrimp

Discussion in 'New to Saltwater & Reef Aquariums? Post Here' started by brandon429, Sep 20, 2015.

  1. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Sure we can tell by pics (if benthic life is seen that means filter bac are present) can you post a shot of the rocks

    Nowadays people have to know the origin of their live rock for each example... painted coralline rocks exist be sure and know

    If we don't see any life on the rocks you can run the digestion test to know if they are cycled

    Thanks for stopping in for a nice little bump for the thread

    The digestion test where you measure 2 ppm ammonia to zero within 24 hours can definitively state if the cycle is done, but your pics will show details to see if putting ammonia on those rocks would be counter productive to life on them

    Depending on pics if it's for sure group B rocks we do the opposite kind of verification... we would use non API ammonia test kit of high quality to make sure they aren't leaking ammonia due to dieoff... if they aren't, they are pre cycled and you can begin light reefing.

    If you dont have any pods, worms, sponges, starfish etc then you can run the digestion test, that's the final say on if a cycle is complete. If you have those, don't do the test just add some frags and begin with light start reefing
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  2. ParkerB

    ParkerB Well-Known Member

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    I got the LR from two different fish stores. The purple rock I know has been sitting in a display for about 2 years. The other rock I do not know how long it has been cycling.

    With an API test kit I ended up testing late last night cause my water seemed a little cloudy but nothing crazy. And it ended up reading

    Ammonia 2ppm
    Nitrite 0ppm
    Nitrate 0ppm
     
  3. ParkerB

    ParkerB Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  4. ParkerB

    ParkerB Well-Known Member

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    I did get 1 hermit as a hitchhiker and a small cerith from the purple rock
     
  5. ParkerB

    ParkerB Well-Known Member

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    I posted above the rock, thanks for the quick response.
     
  6. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    we would have to fully disregard the api information and go solely off known history and visual specs, which are quite good

    that known history and that much coralline on the rocks we can see mean its a skip cycle, unless you dosed raw ammonia or a shrimp to rot causing a known spike.

    that rock by itself is not pumping out 2ppm alone, and overcoming the bacteria that are resident due to the aging we can see off that rock.

    The group A portion of your tank is just like the tank walls and surfaces when the first setup was done...inert for our matters simply because the group B rocks are so clearly aged and matured they can pull a lion's share of nitrification duties. I can see broken tubeworm shells littering the floor due to adjustments

    nice rock! this was a really helpful post to our thread. visual biology cycling

    lets do another neat verification using no testing, smell test

    can you lift out one of those fine purple specimens and give it a light whiff, it will smell like ocean not skunk, 2ppm is skunk from roadkill obvious :)

    need smell test whiff~the point of this craziness is finding a trustworthy time to believe API got it wrong and basic tank transfer didn't kill or sterilize group B rock. Im preparing a video right now that shows me taking down my whole reef, leaving rocks and corals in the air for 20 mins, and drain-cleaning my entire setup including rinsing live sandbed in tap water. I then re assembled a perfectly clean detritus-free reef, and skipped the cycle. its the same bio stress as bringing home rocks from a pet store and putting them into a clean tank, like you've done.

    My reef is ten years old and still gets the treatment you are giving your setup on first go, cycles are predictable.
     
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  7. ParkerB

    ParkerB Well-Known Member

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    I did feed some brine shrimp the day I added the rock and water to the tank.

    Purple rock definitely smells like ocean.

    Edit: the larger white rock does not really smell like anything but dry rock to me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  8. ParkerB

    ParkerB Well-Known Member

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    That's good news then. Since the rock smells of ocean I must have skipped my cycle. Now should I do a water change? Or just disregard the test completely and go ahead and add coral.

    If I do do a WC should it be 100% or just a regular 30%
     
  9. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    a light bumping of food wont cause any recycle this tank is good to go. I wouldn't stack fish in so quick, but yes on the frags that live rock can carry the bioloading of some clean up crew, some corals.

    why not add more of that fine live rock and make the balance 2/3 B and 1/3 A (cost is a downside)

    all that does is speed up your aging wait for the tank

    the water change percentage is a matter of pref, it wont impact your tank safety either way from this point on. It will impact overall nutrients and nitrate/algae cycles if any but the cycle was pretty much skipped. The reason we aren't adding fish is so you don't have to rush with their additional bioload and push things...plus the feeding they require etc.

    its very safe to go off known biology and start the tank with some frags and a clean up crew, fish in two mos after that working up very slowly and quarantining along the way.

    Yours was the blended cycle tank, where we plan things around the known group B portion that carries filtration ability instantly if its not leaking raw ammonia itself (smells really bad when it does, the rot that liberates ammonia always smells and is never neutral in the supposed amnts of 2ppm)
    the group A portion isn't helping or hurting, its inert, but we wouldn't carry an ongoing ammonia loading for this tank at 2ppm to cycle the group A portion since we have live rock in tow that doesn't want to be burned. I do believe some water-borne decay of the feed you added jolted a little ammonia, then it goes away in 24 hrs as cycled tanks w do. we should start with a bioload that doesn't command as much since the live portion is the smaller amnt.


    **since the group B portion is the least of the mass in the rock, early bioloading should be small and a slower ramp up. Many times people just sit with the tank in this condition for an arbitrary amnt of time for the uncycled rocks to catch up...that's ok too, we're just saying you could have a couple frags and some snails during that wait time too (the light start no fish yet)

    that's a lot of group A/B talk many people think we are crazy

    heh
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
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  10. ParkerB

    ParkerB Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for all the info.
     
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  11. ParkerB

    ParkerB Well-Known Member

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    Ended up buying more purple rock for a great price and swapped out the other rock and decided to just keep it in a bucket of water until I needa use it.

    But here's the new rock all scaped I the tank [​IMG]
     
  12. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Your new tank is now 100 yrs old :) that's ironic and true if substrate evaluation means anything wow that group B rock is of exceptional quality it's literally all coralline
     
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  13. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    http://reef2reef.com/threads/little-scared.252828/

    *how that thread is a very helpful reference to our cycling thread here:
    1. When bacteria are established the don't retroscale if you stop tank feeding. This is handy knowledge for fallow tank ich prep tanks, bio fouling is not required, be clean. Bac do not need your help

    2. Nitrite behavior never behaves independently from ammonia given verified oxidation/digest testing we have made a focus of this thread, this is why you do not have to test for nitrites at any stage, because of that thread above

    The poster had prepped a cycled tank nearly a hundred days submerged and was tired of nitrate spiking to keep bac alive. We quit shooting food into the tank, prepping his upcoming algae battles better, and he tested to report if the bacteria survived and he did it in a way most tank cyclers expect to see on test readings before they'll proceed.
     
  14. edinphilly

    edinphilly Well-Known Member

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    Just stumbled onto this thread and it is fantastic. You break it down so well. It always struck me as weird how many people had a way of cycling that didn't take into account the "quality" of the live rock. If you plan right and go at a reasonable pace there is no need for waiting through a ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycling process unless you're using dry or uncured rock.
     
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  15. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Thanks for posting am glad that's the takeaway after editing and arranging (ongoing)

    All input is taken and factored into our cycle approach.

    I've found that to generate ammonia in a truly sustained, low level amount from group B cured rocks takes harsh action not normal action. if we review test kit verification and transfer procedures most use, the actual risk of die off is much less if ever. The usefulness of that change in observation is in deep tank cleaning, or tank moving between homes, or shipping, any skip cycle reason we require. Previously it was written as not possible, the slightest disturbance causes recycling.


    live rock is tougher than we give it credit, and certain shippers are actually regularly able to ship the live rock and still skip cycle it, a helpful tie in to our thread.

    http://reef2reef.com/threads/tampa-bay-saltwater-live-rock.245819/#post-2887071

    They have such fast shipping and special packing techniques that there is no die off....that's a direct rule breaking of what live rock is claimed to do. Industry insiders know the biology, they observe no other rules.

    Skip cycling is an extension of reef control we should collect all examples pro or con. It's making them money above...competitive advantage due to skip cycling is the entire point of that that thread.


    Ideally cycling becomes streamlined if we know the actions a set of rocks require, post pics if you can
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
  16. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    bump for the edit above. The shipper is able to mail us group b rock with no cycle, loaded with color and age due to every character of bacteria and coralline reviewed so far here.



    They ship you rock cured down to thick coralline, bacteria/not heavily populated with worms. Preempting die off...changes the rules into something beneficial for them and a business advantage-their business directly involves skip cycle science and knowing what group B rocks can do.
     
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  17. Defiant Arms

    Defiant Arms Well-Known Member

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    So Mr.Brandon I was planning on getting rock and sand from Tampa bay and doing a tank cycle, than proceeding on weeks down the road with getting fish ect. But if I have read all of your extensive and Very much appreciated threads correctly with Tampa bays rock and sand I won't need to do this at all? In theory I can set my rock up on Friday and have fishes in there on Saturday?
     
  18. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    If they are shipped and retained like the other TB threads then yes it should work

    pls post your outcomes and measures and how you verified no free ammonia before fish addition people want to see how we aren't guessing

    Smell test sure works great in addition to salifert or high quality, not low quality, low level ammonia test kits.

    (Free ammonia accurately measured and verified in the water a day later after they were put into a clean new tank would mean fail...not fish ready... that didn't happen in the reference threads due to factors controlled that we'd have to repeat to get same outcome)

    There's no need to have fish bought before you get the rock but if some emergency situation was required then our thesis here is handy--relocating live rock doesn't cause low level ammonia you have to do something profound to cause dieoff

    Now these guys are shipping across states and skipping cycles that's pushing it obviously...its why we use them as awesome/extreme skip cycle examples

    Bacteria don't die unless you med them, and live rock can be cured down to items that ship well.




    Typically we break cycle rules using live rocks from a pet store...twenty min ride home

    this ability to interstate ship and still pull it off is rare but shows the exact nature of this thread and I'm proud of them lol. Have extra verification step (best low level ammonia kit you can buy) for what you are planning since it's more than twenty minutes from tank to tank, but yes it seems to work for others

    Salifert ammonia brand is what I would trust and then any other test kit to have as a verification reading if possible. If the rock doesn't smell and salifert says zero after 24 hours back in tank = good to go
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016
  19. Robink

    Robink Well-Known Member

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    Great info here. Thank you. In the process of setting up a new tank. Answered all my questions. :)
     
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  20. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Thank you for posting can't wait to see a pic if you have one when ready
     

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