Nitrate question for randy or someone wit more knowledge than me!!!

[Diesel]

@Diesel ....I understand what your saying about just not worrying about.it but it shouldn't be happening and I would like to understand why it is...also this isn't a just this batch thing or a one time testing error, this has been going on for at least the 2 months ago that I first noticed it.....the reference of some people not understanding why there 0 tds water has a tds reading after mixed with salt is a funny one but deff not a good reference similarity here...there is an easy answer to that... although there has not been an issue with the tanks so far doesn't quite mean that something couldn't accumulate from what ever is happening over time or even get worst and become an issue...I have been doing this long enough to know that in this hobby sometimes strange unexplainable things happen...but this should be explainable ( in theory) I sincerely appreciate your input but with the amount of livestock and emotional attachment to my hobby I cant bring my self to say I know somethings off but I shouldn't worry about it because I can't physically see an affect yet....something is causeing it. I usually dont bother the forums with simple questions that have been asked repeatedly but I havent been able to figure this one out so I thought maybe somebody else would think of or notice something I have not myself yet....once again thank you very much for your input I know you are a major contributor on this forum and thank you for your time..if you can think of anything else that may be causing this please inform me

@jason2459 this cat actually does have a litter box. Lol it is inside the house the basement resides under the splitlevel house. The thought has crossed my mind before and I'm starting to wonder if there is some merit to the cat issue....I'm going to mix up water in house and also in basement in an old sealed salt bucket and see if it develops the same results...that would atleast narow it down a little more

Thanks all for the Input

But how is your system doing in that saltwater?
If the system is doing good stop chasing numbers, that's what I would and many will back that up.

 

[tunedtank]

@jason2459 thanks for your help and input... I do not do any form of carbon dosing...I have thought about it in the past and and run new like parameters anyway...
My lighting on older tank is black box led and 4 blue+ t5....the younger is 400w radium in LB mini with 100w of blue led's...on a side note....I as well have seen and done tons of research on higher no3 systems and while I'm not against it as many would feel mine are too high I'm not entirely convice that it's helping or beneficial to run them so high... I do believe that healthy corals are very adaptive and can survive not so perfect environments but I believe in compounding...such as corals could handle 10 dofferer things with no problem as long as it's just one or 2 of those things but as soon as you compound multiplet stressor then you start seeing problems...but not that high no3 is a problem either

@Diesel if by how are the inhabitants doinh in that water you mean using the wc water for wc then yes they do seem to be doing great for the most part...I listed earlier the slight issues I'm having a few post up...but cant blame this topic for the cause of it...and I don't feel like I'm chashing numbers because Im not trying to change anything in the tank....I'm all for setting a parameter range and just trying to stay within it...problems arise when you don't promote stability...my main issue here is that new saltwater imo is meant to be clean and fresh and to dilute the accumulation given off by the tank inhabitants if I just use this water and don't worry about then I will be introducing one of the very things I'm trying to dilute...I can see where it wouldn't be a problem at all or even a bonus if you were nutrient deprived and having to dose nitrates but i would like for the nitrates in my systems to come from the inhabitants and the food I feed and personally add and have control of not from the unexplained occurrence in my wc water...but that's just me I could be completely wrong for feeling that way but I would like for my wc to remove and dilute no3 and not add to it...I'm just lookin for possible causes of high no3 in new salt water..again thank you for your perspectives I do see what you are saying...

 

[Diesel]

@Diesel if by how are the inhabitants doinh in that water you mean using the wc water for wc then yes they do seem to be doing great for the most part...I listed earlier the slight issues I'm having a few post up...but cant blame this topic for the cause of it...and I don't feel like I'm chashing numbers because Im not trying to change anything in the tank....I'm all for setting a parameter range and just trying to stay within it...problems arise when you don't promote stability...my main issue here is that new saltwater imo is meant to be clean and fresh and to dilute the accumulation given off by the tank inhabitants if I just use this water and don't worry about then I will be introducing one of the very things I'm trying to dilute...I can see where it wouldn't be a problem at all or even a bonus if you were nutrient deprived and having to dose nitrates but i would like for the nitrates in my systems to come from the inhabitants and the food I feed and personally add and have control of not from the unexplained occurrence in my wc water...but that's just me I could be completely wrong for feeling that way but I would like for my wc to remove and dilute no3 and not add to it...I'm just lookin for possible causes of high no3 in new salt water..again thank you for your perspectives I do see what you are saying...

Glad we could help.
One more thing you can try is a different salt.
If that salt mix still comes out to a high No3 pretty sure you need to relocate your mixing station or do like most not mix to long.

 

[tunedtank]

@Diesel thank you for all of the help...I'm deffinately going to try a couple things based off the suggestions here and try to find out the cause...I'm not so much concerned to pinpoint the exact cause something as vague as it is deffinately coming from the air quality in basement...I'm fine with that then I know how to fix it...once again than you for your time and input

 

[Diesel]

No problem, all my pleasure.

 

[rygh]

Two main guesses:

1) Chloramines!
Do you have them in your tap water?
Are you SURE your DI stage is working properly, not depleted (or not existent)
The carbon stage converts Chloramine to chloride + ammonia+nitrogen.
If your DI stage does not get all the ammonia, bacteria will turn that into Nitrate.

2) Salt additives and impurites.
Some salts deliberately add "amino acids" and other organics.
Some salts have organic impurities that they try to market as additives.
These break down to ammonia and then nitrate.

Suggestion:
Check and plot both ammonia and nitrate just after mixing, and then after a week.

 

[tunedtank]

@rygh I am not sure if I gave them in my tap water, I do have a DI stage and it was changed about a month ago maybe more...based on the color change of the resin it is still good only about 1/4 of the bottom has colored as being spent...but I cant say for sure there aren't chloramines getting passed it...how would I check for this is there a test?
Also I am using regular instant ocean salt mix...I have not known or heard of them using any amino blend or labeling as any "marketed additives" (such as the reef crystals).... I don't think Instant ocean is suppose to contain these things. I think the chloramines is worth a look at if they can commonly find there way through di resin....I will have to obtain a water quality report from the water company to comfirm them in the city water....thanks

 

[Elementalj]

What exactly are you suggesting?

If he purchased the house used, and someone was doing hydroponics in the basement and either spilled something like stump killer, or they used the root cellar as some sort of storage for fertilizer the ground and even the concrete could be saturated because of permeation. We all know now not to use plastics In the microwave because they are themselves permeable and can leach Bishoenol A, Phthalates and vinyl chloride with temperature extremes so why couldn't it go the other way?

 

[Elementalj]

Also, if the ground where he's got his root cellar/basement was once something else, say a nursery or orchard the ground itself, and the surrounding property could also be saturated with nitrates, or phosphates used in agriculture. Another thing, he could be getting low level seep from a drainfield?

 

[tunedtank]

@Elementalj I hear what your saying and your saying this permeation would only happen in temp extremes....there are no temp extremes in the basement it's half under ground and block walled and bricked around it...although it's not climate controlled it does stay a pretty constant 50°-70°F based on the season. Can you elaborate on this drain field seep?

 

[Elementalj]

Well, you understand what a septic tank and drain field are correct? As I understand it, the tank catches solids and some liquid. Once the tank is full of water the overflow heads out into channels to the ground. There's biological activity in the tank itself doing almost exactly what our reef tanks do, breaking down solids to nitrogenous waste. Concrete and most block is permeable and if there's no moisture barrier between the block in the basement and the ground outside you can get moisture through the walls and flooring.

Like I said, it was hairbrained but possible. I'd go buy another brute container and do my mixing in that after I put some moisture barrier between the bottom of the tub and floor.

 

[tunedtank]

I got you and yes I am familiad with the way it works and I guess it's plausable but likely nto feasible...how do you propose it makes its way through the plastic brute? Cant hurt to try it though my fresh water is up off the ground and sits for much longer with no nitrate addition...so I'll give it a shot and see what happens...tonight I'm gonna try a couple different things and at least eliminate some variables...thank you very much for your input

 

[Elementalj]

Hey, keep us posted about how it works out. I'm very curious about this situation because I used to keep several hundred gallons of sea water circulating and never got any nitrate even after months.

 

[tunedtank]

@Elementalj I definately will it will be a few days before I can tell if any of the changes or variables made a difference but I'll post it incase anybody else is having a similar issue
Thanks everybody for the Input and troubleshoot

 

[Elementalj]

One thing that unites us other than these critters, is pure curiosity! [emoji6][emoji1611]

 

[tunedtank]

Lol yes it is...this hobby is never ending curiosity lol...it's a love hate relationship with me lol

 

[Elementalj]

Lol yes it is...this hobby is never ending curiosity lol...it's a love hate relationship with me lol

With us all, my friend. [emoji6][emoji111]️

 

[Hans-Werner]

There is another possibility besides ammonia how nitrites and nitrates might get into the water through the air, it is the nitrogen oxides from road traffic and other combustions.
I don´t know whether potassium ferrocyanide can be degraded to nitrite and nitrate too. From the bindings in the molecule it may be unlikely to form nitrites and nitrates. At least it contains nitrogen and is used as anticaking in salts.
Also other additives like EDTA may be degradated to Nitrate: "Some microorganisms have even been discovered to form nitrates out of EDTA but degrade optimally at moderately alkaline conditions of pH 9.0–9.5"

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If he purchased the house used, and someone was doing hydroponics in the basement and either spilled something like stump killer, or they used the root cellar as some sort of storage for fertilizer the ground and even the concrete could be saturated because of permeation. We all know now not to use plastics In the microwave because they are themselves permeable and can leach Bishoenol A, Phthalates and vinyl chloride with temperature extremes so why couldn't it go the other way?

You can be entirely CERTAIN that no molecules or ions such as nitrate are diffusing through the plastic of a trash can. Diffusion through plastic is VERY, VERY slow for such molecules.

Some molecules formulated into the plastic can be near the surface of the plastic already and may diffuse out, but not through the whole thickness of a trash can.

 

[Elementalj]

Ok. Thanks for clearing that up.