Nitrates...what's the deal?

[TbyZ]

I'm add one more thing.
I started running 1.5 gallons of Seachem "Matrix" in my sump in a 20 gallon per hour reactor. Figured if I ran the flow slow enough I'd grow nitrate consuming bacteria and right now is those Marine Pure blocks are selling like hot cakes.

Well after 8 weeks my nitrates were going up.

Then,
I happen to read a RH-F article that live rock was the best way to go for nitrate consuming bacteria.
He also added that other means could just make a giant nitrate factory. So I went back to Seachem's and Marine Pure's sites and they have no scientific proof that their products reduce nitrates by any scientific test studies.
If I'm wrong (And I'm wrong a lot) please show me their scientific proof with their details on how to set it up to match their data.

So, I followed FH-F article and pulled the man made bio filtration from my sump's reactor and he was spot on!
I was running a nitrate factory in that reactor. I pulled the media, let the live rock do it's job and my nitrates came down.

The man made deep pore filtration my be consuming nitrates for you but it was a nitrate factory for me.

Regards, GoVols

Yes i found that marine pure 8x8x4 block to b a nitrate factory also. But keep in mind that marine pure state "designed specifically to target ammonia & nitrite removal & minimizes nitrates."

 

[NeverlosT]

hmm, maybe I will consider yanking out that block. I didn't ever have those issues with elevated Nitrate when I was just relying on Live Rock. Furthermore, my Aluminum levels might come back down (there has been a documented frequent correlation between use of the MarinePure blocks and elevated Aluminum levels, though it must also be mentioned that I don't think elevated Aluminum at those levels hurts anything).

Also, I agree, this thread has been great, good opinions and experiences shared. I think we get in trouble when people cruise in and state an opinion as if it were outright fact and then defend it as such.

We have the one pillar of reefkeeping: "Patience is key"
Perhaps we need to add a second: "Each reef is unique, what works for one may not work for another"

 

[GoVols]

I think we get in trouble when people cruise in and state an opinion as if it were outright fact and then defend it as such.

We have the one pillar of reefkeeping: "Patience is key"
Perhaps we need to add a second: "Each reef is unique, what works for one may not work for another"

+1

And I'm guilty as charged on the first sentence

 

[cilyjr]

How dare you guys, especially you Ben @NeverlosT, come into my thread and be nice....this is the Internets and we must be as venomous as possible while hiding behind our avatars. You are ruining everything....(Insert emoji or something here)


Seriously though. I don't think I'm planning on changing anything I'm doing at this point, I was really curious how something (nitrates) considered so detrimental has done a bit of a 180 (within a limited parameter) in popular opinion.

How does one even dose to increase nitrates? I think I'd just dump a whole pack of food in. Lol

 

[Digby57]

Brightwell's NO3 block brought my nitrates from 40-50ppm to undetectable (Salifert) in about 45 days. It's sulfur doped, but they also have a bio block of the same material that's like marine pure.

I plan to keep running it just like this and I'm only testing no3 po4 every other week now. I also use brightwell's po4 cubes and dose microbacter7 every other day (a couple drops). I do the above for 2 tanks, both nanos. Both are squeaky clean with only a weekly brushing of the glass. I also dose minimal amounts of kz phols extra special, coral vitalizer and sponge power, and also feed live phyto and liberal amounts of frozen. All of that is another topic of course, but I feel like no3 and po4 are just pollutants as compared to real foods that are added and either consumed or removed by my comprehensive filteration systems.

My 2¢.

 

[GoVols]

Brightwell's NO3 block brought my nitrates from 40-50ppm to undetectable (Salifert) in about 45 days. It's sulfur doped, but they also have a bio block of the same material that's like marine pure.

I plan to keep running it just like this and I'm only testing no3 po4 every other week now. I also use brightwell's po4 cubes and dose microbacter7 every other day (a couple drops). I do the above for 2 tanks, both nanos. Both are squeaky clean with only a weekly brushing of the glass. I also dose minimal amounts of kz phols extra special, coral vitalizer and sponge power, and also feed live phyto and liberal amounts of frozen. All of that is another topic of course, but I feel like no3 and po4 are just pollutants as compared to real foods that are added and either consumed or removed by my comprehensive filteration systems.

My 2¢.

Thanks for sharing what's working for your setup

No bashing, Just nice to see reefers post on this thread for what works for their reef.

 

[TbyZ]

No bashing, Just nice to see reefers post on this thread for what works for their reef

Have you had a bad experience here GoVols ?

 

[GoVols]

Have you had a bad experience here GoVols ?

lol,
Yes, I stated a sure "simple" way to calculate how much mag you need per your cal parameter and in the end I got bullheaded and dug in deep to another poster and it got heated. In the end my "simple" formula dose not hold up if you keep your cal at 380 - 400 ppm. So I told that poster that I was sorry for going off the deep end.

I keep my cal between 440 and 450 so my "simple" formula works perfectly

Then RH-F responded to me that we weren't looking for "simple" on his forum.

lol,
He said we were not about "simple" but facts on his forum and if I wanted to talk "Simple" then I may need to head over and help the guys on the "New to the Hobby" forum

 

[TbyZ]

lol,
Yes, I stated a sure "simple" way to calculate how much mag you need per your cal parameter and in the end I got bullheaded and dug in deep to another poster and it got heated. In the end my "simple" formula dose not hold up if you keep your cal at 380 - 400 ppm. So I told that poster that I was sorry for going off the deep end.

I keep my cal between 440 and 450 so my "simple" formula works perfectly

Then RH-F responded to me that we weren't looking for "simple" on his forum.

lol,
He said we were not about "simple" but facts on his forum and if I wanted to talk "Simple" then I may need to head over and help the guys on the "New to the Hobby" forum

deary me?

I had a very bad experience on another forum myself not too long ago.

Don't go there any longer; neither do many other people by the look of it. I think that was the problem.

I find this place very good. Hope it stays that way.

 

[GoVols]

deary me?

I had a very bad experience on another forum myself not too long ago.

Don't go there any longer; neither do many other people by the look of it. I think that was the problem.

I find this place very good. Hope it stays that way.

Well, I should not have gone off like that. I felt like that poster was being a big shot and I went into a knee jerk reaction and I swallowed his bait.

To be honest, I was the one that ruined that thread. Once someone ruins a thread it dies and we all loose out.

So, I'm trying to learn and help and try not to take others too personal so I don't kill another thread.

 

[hart24601]

I have not tested nitrates in my system since I cycled my tank back in 2006. At first I didn't care as I was told nitrates were evil. So I didn't care they were 0 on my salifert kit. Then years go by and I'd test from time to time and always get a reading of 0. Then my nitrate test kit expired and years went by and I test from time to time and still get a 0. So then I would assume that the test kit is expired so I'm getting an inaccurate reading I mean there has to be a little bit of nitrate floating around in there. So I got a new test kit it doesn't expire until 2019 and when I did the test it read 0.

Now I'm reading the forums more often and all the kids are "dude 0 nitrates bad. Nitrates are the cats meow, or the bees knees," (this is how I assume hipster kids talk). Here I was thinking any nitrates were bad now I'm being told I need to have nitrates.

What do you guys think about this?

What happened is carbon dosing. That changed the game on nitrates. That and the rise of more SPS tanks.

Pre carbon dosing even if nitrates appeared to be 0 there was generally a little bit in the system, carbon dosing strips that out fast. Not that it didn't happen before, but it was somewhat rare and nothing people generally needed to worry about. On the other hand in that era high nitrates were a good sign the system could use some better maintenance, so it was vilified.

Plus in the era when SPS were not terribly common more people kept LPS which are pretty good about snagging large food from the water, which also helped them not become nutrient deprived. We have good SPS appropriate mixed frozen foods now, but that wasn't the case a decade ago.

I love carbon dosing, but that combined with the current love for SPS tanks had just made people change how we need to think about some nutrients. Keep in mind even just a hint of color on a test like salifert seems to be enough - a value that previously would have been 0 by most peoples interpretation of the test. I aim to keep them detectable, not even 1ppm.

 

[Areseebee]

Yes i found that marine pure 8x8x4 block to b a nitrate factory also. But keep in mind that marine pure state "designed specifically to target ammonia & nitrite removal & minimizes nitrates."

What does this mean exactly? Nitrates are a byproduct of nitrites which are a byproduct of ammonia, the blocks speed up the process by housing more of the bacteria that do these processes but they don't (I don't think) create more of it then the initial substrate you provided in the first place (through feeding and poop).

Furthermore, so long as it's in a low flow area my understanding is that it should primarily be cultivating the anaerobic bacteria that break down nitrates.

Maybe I'm being overly simple.

 

[GoVols]

Furthermore, so long as it's in a low flow area my understanding is that it should primarily be cultivating the anaerobic bacteria that break down nitrates.

Has anyone "proved" with hard scientific facts that running Marine Pure deep pore media at slow rates produces anaerobic bacteria?

Where is Marine Pure'e scientific data?
If they've got the research that proves it out, then show that scientific data and show us how to run it to hit their research.

It's one thing to sell something and say "Could" and it's something else to say "It Will".

I tried and got a huge nitrate factory. Took it out and my live rock took over and my nitrates came down.

If your running them and they have brought your nitrates down then I'm happy for you and please post your findings

So far we've got one post that says Brightwell is working and was honest that they are also dosing bacteria as well. It working for them and that's good to know.

Regards, GoVols

 

[hart24601]

Has anyone "proved" with hard scientific facts that running Marine Pure deep pore media at slow rates produces anaerobic bacteria?

Where is Marine Pure'e scientific data?
If they've got the research that proves it out, then show that scientific data and show us how to run it to hit their research.

It's one thing to sell something and say "Could" and it's something else to say "It Will".

I tried and got a huge nitrate factory. Took it out and my live rock took over and my nitrates came down.

If your running them and they have brought your nitrates down then I'm happy for you and please post your findings

So far we've got one post that says Brightwell is working and was honest that they are also dosing bacteria as well. It working for them and that's good to know.

Regards, GoVols

I run marine pure blocks on my systems FW and salt and have not noticed any more nitrate. I have been running these for several years now. Traditionally the term "nitrate factory" which I dislike was applied to filter media that had a tendency of trapping detritus so that it couldn't be exported either manually (filter socks or pads) or consumed by clean up crews.

I am running 5 8x8x4 blocks and have pulled them out when doing sump general maintenance and have been impressed with the lack of detritus in them. I have rinsed them with tank water every 6 months or so in a bucket with other biomedia and have never seen detritus inside of them, it will collect on the outside if there isn't enough circulation. For comparison my ehiem substate pro and sporax in media bags tend to accumulate much more detritus inside of them making them more along the lines of "nitrate factories" however that is a bit of a stretch I think as it's not much, just more than the block.

I do agree with your skepticism on their ability to reduce nitrate unless it's in a carbon dosed system. Too many variables even if they provided data to make that extrapolation to everyone's tanks IMO. However I do disagree with calling them nitrate factories.

 

[GoVols]

Thanks for your input and happy it's working for your

When I say nitrate factory's. It's in terms that my clean deep pore man made bio media ran the nitrogen cycle but I could not get it to grow nitrate consuming bacteria and my nitrates were going up causing a nitrate producing factory. I added bio media that in the end was just producing more nitrates.

My nitrites were fine by the my previous means but I just wanted to give it a good go and I got my results.

I found RH-F's article and He was spot on to what was happening in my reef.

I pulled it out, let live rock do it's job and went back to my old husbandry and they dropped back down.

It just shows that there is no one best way and each reef is different and reefers find what works best for them.

We share with out ripping others apart and that's a good thing

Regards, GoVols

 

[Areseebee]

When I say nitrate factory's. It's in terms that my clean deep pore man made bio media ran the nitrogen cycle but I could not get it to grow nitrate consuming bacteria and my nitrates were going up causing a nitrate producing factory. I added bio media that in the end was just producing more nitrates.

But it's not "making" more nitrate than you would have had already. It doesn't add substrate for nitrification, it can only speed up how fast it reaches the end point by providing more surface area for bacteria to grow. It is as much of a nitrate factory as the ammonia your tank provides... then again so is your live rock, sand bed etc.

You could make an argument, as hart24601 addressed above, that if it physically is trapping detritus and stopping it from getting exported in another way and that increases the amount of substrate available to nitrifying bacteria. However, I've have a similar experience where mine hasn't had this problem because of the low flow area where it resides.

 

[GoVols]

But it's not "making" more nitrate than you would have had already. It doesn't add substrate for nitrification, it can only speed up how fast it reaches the end point by providing more surface area for bacteria to grow. It is as much of a nitrate factory as the ammonia your tank provides... then again so is your live rock, sand bed etc.

You could make an argument, as hart24601 addressed above, that if it physically is trapping detritus and stopping it from getting exported in another way and that increases the amount of substrate available to nitrifying bacteria. However, I've have a similar experience where mine hasn't had this problem because of the low flow area where it resides.

Read Randy's point he makes on #5.
This is what was happening in my case.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry

 

[ReefingwithO]

26ml a day of vinegar keeps my nitrates around 5 - phosphates at .1
I have an overstocked 75 gallon and I do about a 20 gallon water change every 2 months.

 

[canister guy]

I have the fluval fx4 canister on a 75 gallon. People talk bad all the time bout canisters and nitrates. I add water once a week and i clean and replace my media (seachem) and do a water change every friday night. My tank is only couple months old but its been a pleasent first time experience for me ... SO FAR

 

[GoVols]

I have the fluval fx4 canister on a 75 gallon. People talk bad all the time bout canisters and nitrates. I add water once a week and i clean and replace my media (seachem) and do a water change every friday night. My tank is only couple months old but its been a pleasent first time experience for me ... SO FAR

I ran a canister filter on a 29 bio cube and I felt like it did better than a protein skimmer in 2008.
It was a beautiful little reef but like you I maintained it properly