PH buffer goo

[nashvillian]

so after I got water tested at LFS (0,0,0) (7.7 ph, 8.8 dKh, 480 Ca), emp suggested I use a buffer for the Ph. I purchased Seachem Marine buffer, used a little less than a teaspoon per instructions for my 20l, and now there is an oily/waxy coating in the water and a gelatinous off-white goo where the water line is at the top of the tank. What is this and how do I get rid of it? I also dose seachem Reef Builder (dKH) and Reef Complete (Ca).

 

[Cory]

so after I got water tested at LFS (0,0,0) (7.7 ph, 8.8 dKh, 480 Ca), emp suggested I use a buffer for the Ph. I purchased Seachem Marine buffer, used a little less than a teaspoon per instructions for my 20l, and now there is an oily/waxy coating in the water and a gelatinous off-white goo where the water line is at the top of the tank. What is this and how do I get rid of it? I also dose seachem Reef Builder (dKH) and Reef Complete (Ca).

There shouldn't be any residue or slime left over from "buffer". I wouldnt worry about it. Can you getba picture?

Also dosing "buffer" is a bad choice for increasing ph. By adding buffer your increasing your alk (dkh). Which is already 8.8, and i wouldnt be adding more.

To raise ph open windows and doors to let in fresh air. Its because of excess co2 in the house, not alk or buffer.

Also you can use baking soda instead of buffer, cost 2$.

 

[nashvillian]

The buffer i use does not increase dkh. thats why i have reef builder. i think the ionic balance was off and dosed more alk and inverted a siphon and did a small water change. looks much better.

 

[Cory]

The buffer i use does not increase dkh. thats why i have reef builder. i think the ionic balance was off and dosed more alk and inverted a siphon and did a small water change. looks much better.

Reef builder, if thats whst your using does increase alkalinity. It contains bicarbonate and borate both if which contribute to total alkalinty. And so does seachem marine buffer.

Marine Buffer® contains sodium, magnesium, calcium, strontium, and potassium salts of carbonate, bicarbonate, chloride, sulfate, and borate.

 

[nashvillian]

i use reef builder for the express purpose of raising alkalinity. i used marine buffer to raise the ph, doesn't directly affect the dKh.

i think you are listening to reply instead of listening to hear.

 

[Cory]

i use reef builder for the express purpose of raising alkalinity. i used marine buffer is to raise the ph, doesn't directly affect the dKh.

i think you are listening to reply instead of listening to hear.

 

[Cory]

Anyways, can you get a pic?

 

[nashvillian]

Cory, I DO NOT USE REEF BUFFER. I USE REEF BUILDER AND MARINE BUFFER. THESE ARE THREE DIFFERENT PRODUCTS.
marine buffer raises ph to its PK of 8.3 with no affect on dKh. reef builder raises dKh with no affect on PH. Reef Buffer raises both. There are fundamental differences in their chemical composition. Baking soda has a pk of 7.8 by the way. I think this question is left best for someone else to answer, thank you.

 

[cmcoker]

All pH buffers increase alkalinity despite marketing claims. I suggest you check this with @Randy Holmes-Farley who leads the chemistry subforum

From Randy's article " Low pH: causes and cures" :
Buffers alone are not generally a good method as they raise pH little, and result in excessive alkalinity. Unfortunately, the labels on many commercial buffers are written in ways that convince aquarists that the pH will be fine if they just add some buffer. More often than not, the pH is not improved for more than a day, and the alkalinity rises beyond desired limits.

 

[Cory]

Cory, I DO NOT USE REEF BUFFER. I USE REEF BUILDER AND MARINE BUFFER. THESE ARE THREE DIFFERENT PRODUCTS.
marine buffer raises ph to its PK of 8.3 with no affect on dKh. reef builder raises dKh with no affect on PH. Reef Buffer raises both. There are fundamental differences in their chemical composition. Baking soda has a pk of 7.8 by the way. I think this question is left best for someone else to answer, thank you.

Theres no need to be rude. Im helping you. In the 15 years in keeping reef tanks, ive learned a bit, on here and other places. Marine buffer will raise alklainity it says on their page man. Read your bottles directions.

http://www.seachem.com/marine-buffer.php

But since your not worried about increasing alk with these products, keep dosing blindly.

Without a pic, the oil may be calcium carbonate precipitate. The pk of that product is 8.3 because of borate, which nothing really uses, and will increase without water changes because nothing is consuming it.

My last comment, if you want to raise ph, open a window. Or run a protein skimmer airline outside.

Or go listen to your lfs who just wants your money.

 

[nashvillian]

it is my understanding that marine buffer works basically like kalkwasser while having minimal effect on dkh

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The buffer i use does not increase dkh. thats why i have reef builder. i think the ionic balance was off and dosed more alk and inverted a siphon and did a small water change. looks much better.

That cannot ever be true. There cannot be any chemical added to a reef tank that boosts pH and does not increase alkalinity. And there is no special chemical that only boosts alkalinity a little. The effect is always about the same and substantial.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Seachem Marine Buffer is a poor choice for a reef tank due to the borate in it, and it has a much bigger boost the alkalinity per pH unit rise than does either sodium carbonate or limewater.

My suggestion is to find a different place for advice than that LFS. They do not have a good understanding of their products.

 

[RobertHouston]

Nash - I am reading directly from the bottle of Marine Buffer. It says: "This dose will also raise alkalinity by about 1 meq/L" (referring to 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons). I'm not sure why you keep saying that it won't.

From: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/rhf/
The units of alkalinity can be meq/L (milliequivalents per liter), dKH (degrees of carbonate hardness), or ppm (meaning ppm of calcium carbonate equivalents). One meq/L = 2.8 dKH = 50 ppm CaCO3 equivalents. Seawater has an alkalinity of about 2.5 meq/L = 7 dKH = 125 ppm CaCO3 equivalents.

 

[nashvillian]

I was mistaken and upset this community responded from the ivory tower. Not sure why you're commenting on a month old post.

 

[fishkeeper2]

Seachem Marine Buffer is a poor choice for a reef tank due to the borate in it, and it has a much bigger boost the alkalinity per pH unit rise than does either sodium carbonate or limewater.

My suggestion is to find a different place for advice than that LFS. They do not have a good understanding of their products.

Marine Buffer has a pK of 8.3. PK is a number that represents the pH of a buffer. Reef Buffer has a heavier carbonate influence than Marine Buffer giving it a higher pK than Marine Buffer. Because of this, Reef Buffer is more successful at overcoming acids where intense biological activity occurs resulting in heavier acid production like in a typical reef aquarium.

However, Reef Buffer can therefore be overdosed whereas marine buffer cannot, per the directions from Seachem. It does not contain boron.

I did not notice that marine buffer has boron in it, but there it is. Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Marine Buffer has a pK of 8.3. PK is a number that represents the pH of a buffer.

Yes, thanks. I have a PhD in chemistry from Harvard and have written dozens of articles on reef chemistry and pH.

Don't be suckered by marketing hogwash. Many of the hobby companies suffer from it.

All buffers can be overdosed as they all boost alkalinity and adding more than you need will result in excessive alkalinity.

Marine Buffer is a bad choice for a reef tank. In a reef, carbonate alkalinity is depleted by calcification (not borate) and Seachems Marine Buffer adds back borate and carbonate/bicarbonate. So long term, the borate rises.

 

[fishkeeper2]

Yes, thanks. I have a PhD in chemistry from Harvard and have written dozens of articles on reef chemistry and pH.

Don't be suckered by marketing hogwash. Many of the hobby companies suffer from it.

All buffers can be overdosed as they all boost alkalinity and adding more than you need will result in excessive alkalinity.

Marine Buffer is a bad choice for a reef tank. In a reef, carbonate alkalinity is depleted by calcification (not borate) and Seachems Marine Buffer adds back borate and carbonate/bicarbonate. So long term, the borate rises.

Thank you Randy, that makes a lot of sense. I keep a closed system reef without doing any water changes. I have been using Marine Buffer over that time to maintain pH at 8.3 like clockwork. But as you pointed out, that was a mistake because my borate levels went through the roof since it is not naturally absorbed by the system.

1) It got to the point where adding 1 teaspoon of Seachem marine buffer reduced pH.
2) Adding 1 scoop of Reef Foundation ABC+ reduced pH by ~0.2.
3) Adding Seachem Reef Fusion increased pH slightly since in increases carbonate alkalinity and maintains it.
Adding Seachem Kalkwasser increased pH to 8.3 for up to 12 hours.

My alkalinity is high due to the borate most likely which is definitely misleading.

At night the pH drops 0.1 or so and comes back up in the morning. I tested my O2 and CO2 levels. My CO2 is a tad high, but I added an MP40 and that really helped.

My pH stabilized at 8.0.

I am going to try to increase carbonate alkalinity a bit more to see the effect, since adding Kalkwasser does not have any long lasting effects.

I do not want to do a water change because then I will loose the chance to figure out how to resolve the issue. The fish seem fine so I do not think the borate is at toxic levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am going to try to increase carbonate alkalinity a bit more to see the effect, since adding Kalkwasser does not have any long lasting effects.

FWIW, the effect of limewater on pH is twice as large as any other product (except it is the same as oproducts that are other pure hydroxide products, but I only am aware of one), and will last as long or longer. It is MUCH more effective and longer lasting than a Seachem buffer.

 

[fishkeeper2]

FWIW, the effect of limewater on pH is twice as large as any other product (except it is the same as oproducts that are other pure hydroxide products, but I only am aware of one), and will last as long or longer. It is MUCH more effective and longer lasting than a Seachem buffer.

Completely agree. I ended up switching to adding kalkwasser and sodium bicarbonate. Sea Chem ended up giving me problems to keep ph stable.

I also got an oversized protein skimmer and that loaded my water with oxygen. That helped too.