Potential Snoutrot on Pipefish. Any advice?

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

Hi! I'm new to the forum and I need some help with one of my dragonface pipes. I tried posting on reefcentral but haven't gotten any help. I'm hoping someone here can show me which way to go from here.

I noticed yesterday that one of my two dragonface pipefish had some damage to the front of her nose.

I did some google searching and found that pipes and seahorses can get snoutrot. It looked similar, but I never saw any of the other symptoms (loss of appetite, swollen or locked jaw, discoloration). Just one day, she had a damaged nose. I tried feeding her baby brine shrimp and she went ahead sipping them up like nothing was wrong.

I posted a bit online hoping to get some advice, and when I woke up this morning, her nose looked even worse.

I noticed that every now and then, she'd start flailing against the glass, rubbing her stump of a snout all over the glass. It seemed to be doing more harm, like scratching a rash. Again, I tried feeding her directly to see if she'd eat, but this time before she had any reaction to the food, one of my peppermint shrimp got over excited about the possibility of food and spooked her. So I haven't yet found out what her appetite is today, or if she's even able to eat.

For now, I moved her into a quarantine tank so she wouldn't be bothered by the shrimp (they can get a little touchy-feely) and so that I can easily medicate if I need to. She was really docile and let me pick her up and handle her.

The other df pipe I have has been in the tank several months longer than this one and seems largely unaffected. He goes about his business and also has no discoloration or damage to the snout. It's the only reason I'm questioning whether or not this damage is snout rot, because it happened so fast and the other pipe is unaffected. My water parameters are all in the ideal range (I keep very close eye on them but if you guys want specifics I can get actual numbers).

Any ideas of what this might be? Should I be worried about my other pipefish? Any advice on what to do from here would be wonderful.

Lionfish Lair · Feb 13, 2017

That's snout rot. How long have you had her?

You're not going to like what I'm going to say, but that's often lethal. Even if the deterioration halted immediately and started to heal, I don't know if they could regain the ability to eat. If there is just skin involvement, sometimes that can heal up enough for the snout to be functional. Yours, however, looks like it's missing the bone of the snout.

Furan 2 would be my choice if you decided to roll with antibiotics. If they aren't eating after a couple of days, you could tube feed. I can help with that if you decide to do it and if you think you would want to go that way, you should start collecting the supplies now.

Yes, there is concern for the other pipes.

I personally would treat with Furan 2, keep the water on the cooler side and keep offering the BBS. That's as far as I would go. I wouldn't do anything about the other pipes just yet, but watch them like a hawk.

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

I've had her a little over a month. The other I've had almost 6 now and he's had no trouble at all in my setup.

I'm actually ok with it begin lethal, honestly. What I don't want is for her to suffer. Yesterday when she was eating, I figured she'd just be a little deformed. But now that the damage is all the way back to her eyes (as you said, the bone of the snout missing), I'm guessing there's not much I can do.

I'll head to the lfs and see if I can get furan 2 and slowly drop the temp of the water in the quarantine. I put some bbs in and she didn't seem interested, a definite change in behavior from yesterday. If that doesn't help and she's unable to eat at this point, what would you suggest I do? Is there a proper way to euthanize a pipe fish, should it come to that?

And also thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate the help <3

Lionfish Lair · Feb 13, 2017

Do you mean there is even more missing from the snout than in the pictures? If yes, I wouldn't treat but would put them down. Their mouths are different than other fish and the parts have to function properly for the sucking mechanism to work. If there's damage, there isn't much to be done.

The instructions for pure Clove Oil are:
• Put 3 drops with a half pint of water and shake very well, so the oil and water make a fusion - otherwise the oil will just float on top of the water and for the euthanasia to work the fish has to get the oil into its system.
• Add the mixture to the water that the fish is in (1 gallon of water should be more than enough) and stir it around slowly with your hand. The fish should become lethargic and sleepy. When the fish goes "belly up" it is asleep - not dead.
• Then add 3 more drops of clove oil. Add another mixture of 2 to 3 drops of oil in water.
• The fish feels nothing, it is very peaceful and humane.
• Don't make the mistake of thinking that if you initially put more in it will act quicker - it will only freak the fish out - it has to be done gradually so the fish doesn't notice the change in the water.
• The whole procedure should take anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. You will know when the fish is completely dead because there will be absolutely no movement of the gills. If after an hour the fishes gills are still moving you could add a couple more drops of clove oil. Sometimes it does depend on the size of the fish to how many drops of clove oil are needed.
• Properly dispose of the deceased fish and wash treatment container thoroughly with soap and water.

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

Er, I wasn't paying attention when I wrote that. The damage is the same as the second picture. I meant to write that her face is pink under the eyes. as in the sentence should have read "But now that there's pink all the way back to her eyes".

Still, it might be best to put it down. I'll keep an eye on her for a little bit longer. If she's able to eat, I'll try treatment. If not, I might just be done..

Is there a substitute for clove oil? I don't know if I have any of that.

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

I took a video quick to show you the extent of the damage (as it's much easier to see in a video than photo). She's definitely not eating now. I used a pipet to gently spray brine shrimp around her head and she kinda looked at them but didn't react.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxth8E6f2JI_Ny1TQTY0V2wtU0E/view?usp=sharing

Let me know if you can't view it. I only vaguely understand drive's sharing capabilities.

Lionfish Lair · Feb 13, 2017

*sigh*

*double sigh*

I don't know if I would even treat :-(

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

Yea... that's what I was expecting. Yesterday, maybe it would have been worth it. Today... I agree, not so much. I'm just amazed at how quickly this progressed.

I'm definitely going to be watching my other pipe like a hawk for sure. Make sure he doesn't have the bacteria too.

Thanks for helping me ID the problem, anyway. And for the advice on euthanasia. I'm definitely going that route. I don't want this poor thing to suffer anymore. I'll have to go get clove oil but I think this is for the best.

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

So I know for the future, how do pipefish get this disease? Is it stress related or would she have been ill beforehand? I want to learn more about these guys so I don't have something unfortunate like this happen again in the future.

Lionfish Lair · Feb 13, 2017

"My circle" seem to believe it's either fungal or bacterial and there isn't a single cause. One horse I had with it had worms (microscopic) around the wound, but they believed they were there because of the wound, not that they caused it. They weren't sure on that point, however. I've actually had several that have had it over the years and it's hard to find a definite common denominator. A friend's I know snicked a bristleworm and from there is all went downhill.

Pipes and seahorses can also be really hard to "mix" or to add a new specimen. It's like when you have some that are established, it's sketchy when you try and add more. It can be either the new one or the established one, but it seems like someone will be knocking on heavens door in short order.

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

Interesting. Seems odd that an infection like that would get into an enclosed habitat. I'm not surprised that horse got hurt from snicking a bristleworm. I accidentally touched one of those uh... nasty beasties??? when I was separating out new macro algae and it hurt soooooooo bad. Needless to say I was infinitely more careful with what macros I put in my tank after that.

I got the second one because I was reading that pipes and horses do better in at least a pair. The first companion I tried with my established one just died overnight, although that one seemed fairly stressed out from the travel time to begin with. Found my shrimp eating it when I got up the next morning (it was missing one of its eyes and they were digging at the belly. it was... pretty gross actually). This one, the second, was fine for about 2 weeks before now. Very active, immediately stuck to the established one, and ate just as happily as the established one. But then... snout damage followed by this.

Is there a substitute for clove oil? I went to 3 drug stores and 2 grocery stores and not a single one had clove oil.

Lionfish Lair · Feb 13, 2017

You may want to go back in your post and edit the 4th sentence down. LOL! I'm surprised the curse filter didn't pick that up.

We don't know what really causes it. :-( Sometimes we see injuries occur and can match it with that, there's just way too many variables.

I'm surprised you're having trouble finding clove. It USED to be difficult to find, except for some health stores, but now I can find it everywhere locally. Sometimes it's over in the toothache section. I've only ever used it and MS-222 to put fish down and MS-222 won't be any easier to find.

vlangel · Feb 13, 2017

ArtsyAxolotl said:
Interesting. Seems odd that an infection like that would get into an enclosed habitat. I'm not surprised that horse got hurt from snicking a bristleworm. I accidentally touched one of those ****ers when I was separating out new macro algae and it hurt soooooooo bad. Needless to say I was infinitely more careful with what macros I put in my tank after that.

I got the second one because I was reading that pipes and horses do better in at least a pair. The first companion I tried with my established one just died overnight, although that one seemed fairly stressed out from the travel time to begin with. Found my shrimp eating it when I got up the next morning (it was missing one of its eyes and they were digging at the belly. it was... pretty gross actually). This one, the second, was fine for about 2 weeks before now. Very active, immediately stuck to the established one, and ate just as happily as the established one. But then... snout damage followed by this.

Is there a substitute for clove oil? I went to 3 drug stores and 2 grocery stores and not a single one had clove oil.

Try a GNC. I got clove oil there.

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

LOL I'm surprised too actually. Although, I didn't even notice I said it either. Just kinda a force of habit I guess XD

I expected it to be with the toothache stuff too. I even asked the pharmacists at the drug stores (CVS, Walgreens, RiteAid) if they knew where it was and they were adamant they don't carry it. I'm reading that amphibian keepers use Orajel for amphibians but I don't think that would work the same for a fish...?

A GNC is a good idea. I'll have to figure out if we even have a one around here. I've only seen one once, at a mall about a half hour from where I live.

Lionfish Lair · Feb 13, 2017

Most people don't put them down, they just kind of let nature take its course. Just putting that out there.

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

That is true too. I'm definitely not going to drive all over god's creation looking for clove oil. But, if there's a place within a reasonable drive from me, I don't mind making the trip. If not, she's in a cooled down quarantine tank so hopefully she's at least calm.

Lionfish Lair · Feb 13, 2017

Most things in my emergency chest got there by first saying "I'm going to buy some anyways, so at least I'll have it for next time".

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

For sure. I just ordered some online, so that I'll have it for next time.

Speaking of, I took a risk for science. I grabbed a tube of tooth ache orajel I had from before I started using sensodyne and used that. I emptied all but a gallon of water out of the quarantine tank, and slowly dissolved the orajel in a cup of water (took a couple tries to get it to dissolve all the way). Poured that in, and she did exactly what you described. Her fairly rapid breathing slowed down, then I added more orajel/water mix a little at a time. Now she's laying on the bottom of the tank not really moving. I'll check again in about 10 minutes but that seems to have done the trick. I'm a little sad but the busted up nose and rapid breathing just looked so painful.

ArtsyAxolotl · Feb 13, 2017

Definitely worked. I removed the body and put it in a bag in the freezer just to be safe, but the orajel definitely did the trick. Luckily (in a way) I'll have actual clove oil just in case this ever happens again. Hopefully it won't but at least I'll be prepared.

Seriously, thanks so much for helping me out. It's too bad it came to this, but I'm grateful to have gotten help here. It was so hard to get advice on other forums and it was nice to come here and have someone reply fairly quickly with great advice. I appreciate that, especially when I ask what I'm sure are noobish questions that have probably been asked 1000 times.

Lionfish Lair · Feb 14, 2017

Awww. Suckage. Glad it was rather quick, though.

You should make a tank thread and show us pics of the other pipe and what you have going on in there.