Pros vs Cons: Deep Sand Bed vs Shallow Sand Bed

[brandon429]

so very helpful thanks!

in agreement I was never able to measure any consequence from po4 leaking from my ultra old sandbed, kept pretty clean of detritus. I would have actually started to measure p04 if something was wrong...all one can ask is to be pest algae free. I hadnt even actually seen what if any amount of po4 was leaking long term, but it was for sure insignificant that much Im sure of, without a test kit.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I agree that detritus accumulation can be a concern, but I've just never understood how the phosphate binding is any concern.

Why does it worry you?

It does not really worry me but it makes the tank more clean.

The big thing is time savings.

I spend so much time vacuuming out one of my Tanks that many times I will not do the water change due to how long it takes (Forever).

Now my Barebottom Tanks are done every week on the day they are due because they are done so quickly that I cannot make an excuse not to do it.

Also, Sand will not get all over your Coral too.

I will never use Sand again.

Not worth it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It seems all your concerns relate to the detritus issue rather than phosphate binding to sand, but that's fine.

 

[jzaso]

I stated earlier in the thread that there was no cons-my bad just one - a dsb in your DT limits your choice of inhabitants, thats the only one I can think of-to many pros in a properly set up dsb the food/bacterial/larva that it produces I believe is essential for the health of many inhabitants not to mention the denitrification/buffering/ trace elements/ it provides, the key to properly functioning dsb is grain size and flow over the bed ime/imo-hotly debated topic here!!
just my twocents and experiances-yep just put 320lbs of oolite sand in the new 300g growout over the weekend!!!

 

[hart24601]

It is an interesting debate. I will say I do enjoy seeing all the life in a DSB, but I still wouldn't run one in the DT for sure - well I wouldn't have one anywhere, but especially the DT, lol. Enjoyment of critters aside, I just don't see why anyone would run one now. I have been around for a teardown of a couple DSB that had been running for 3-5 years, they were are just horrible nasty things - neat life in them, but the amount of detritus was beyond what I thought possible in just sand. Perhaps there are some that are clean after 5 years, I have never seen one. I hear the argument that it is the point of a DSB, to collect all that stuff, but why have it at all? There are plenty of other nutrient export methods that can keep phosphate and nitrates undetectable. Running BB or with a very shallow bed I can clean out all detritus and vacuum out the sump every few months. The amount of waste in there is the same as it was a year ago, and will be the same in 5 years or 10 years. With a DSB it just seems like you are asking for trouble. You never know how much "stuff" is in it since you can't stir it, and you never know when it will get overloaded. I just don't see the point. Everything you want to accomplish with one can be done with better alternatives IMO.

 

[jzaso]

hart24601 I see your point but I think your missing mine-properly running dsb should have no accumlation or impacted point-should be assimalation/conversion/binding/export- the bacterial colonys and micro fauna that it produces are a foodsource for the corals that are near impossible to replicate and dose- not so much for the enjoyment viewing little critters-but as a natural self sustaining food source for the corals/clams/filter feeders
the denitrification aspect is just a plus imo-if I had a fish only system I would be bb-but I prefer my corals & clams!!

 

[hart24601]

hart24601 I see your point but I think your missing mine-properly running dsb should have no accumlation or impacted point-should be assimalation/conversion/binding/export- the bacterial colonys and micro fauna that it produces are a foodsource for the corals that are near impossible to replicate and dose- not so much for the enjoyment viewing little critters-but as a natural self sustaining food source for the corals/clams/filter feeders
the denitrification aspect is just a plus imo-if I had a fish only system I would be bb-but I prefer my corals & clams!!

So a properly running DSB you can stir with no impact and if you stir it there is no detritus that floats up into the tank? The only reason to not stir a properly running DSB then is because you don't want to disrupt it but there is no problem if you do?

 

[jzaso]

The grain size and shape of the substrate are critical- spherical .20mm or less oolitic aragonite sand -crushed coral or grain sizes 1.0/5.0mm are going to trap detrius and cause problems- no dsb should be deeply stirred no mixing of stratified layers -the first inch or so can be stirred with no ill effect with the proper substrate grain size and flow and that first inch "barrier" layer will be flushed continually by proper flow -digging a couple of inches deeper and exposing bacteria to unfavorable conditions/ oxygen levels will cause a die off of said bacteria and probable nutrient release pollution event and breakdown of denitification-I have seen bad dsb beds also usually due to coarse substrate bad flow

 

[hart24601]

Please don't take my comments as any criticism, it's a debate thread but I don’t want to get anyone angry with my thoughts!

So the issue of not stirring it really stands out to me. Now I understand 10+ years ago how fantastic DSB were compared to other methods, and they really do seem to add stability, but it seems to me that they all eventually fail, the deeper and larger the bed the longer it takes. That issue is debated though I don’t really know a way to prove or disprove it so I won’t even focus on that.

When deciding how I will run my tank I system I think about each item and ask myself “why”. Why am I adding it? When I bring this thought process back to DSB I just can’t see the purpose. Unless, like I said, you just want one or like the aesthetics of it. If that is the case, and it’s totally valid, than rock on!

But this is what sticks out to me, why run something so volatile that if you stir it your entire system can die? Macro fuge, algae scrubbers and various carbon dosing can eliminate nutrients as well or better. You can take a basketball size chaeto out and wash it in tap water and it will be fine. Shake it all you want. You can move the tank and have it back up running the same day and be just fine (assuming plumbing is setup). ATS and carbon dosing are equally as easy to move, and not as volatile – even moving a DSB can cause problems. 6” below your fish or in a connected sump you have a pit that can kill your entire system if disturbed. Carbon dosing can even take nutrients too low, lower than DSB can, but you can adjust that, as you can play with the photoperiod of macro or scrubbers while even it’s hard to tell how well or how much a DSB is working and adding to it isn’t just a simple matter of dumping a few more inches of sand on top at once. So in terms of nutrient reduction it does not make sense to me considering the other options we now have. Like in my other post why not just export that waste before it goes into the sand to decompose?

I do understand that you like for the DSB to produce food for the tank, but that again seems tricky with not having too many creatures disturb the sand, and considering how much life is in a scrubber or macro fuge I once again don’t see the point, the amount of pods in a scrubber is amazing. Plus the ATS can macro can help balance pH by using a reverse lighting schedule. Carbon dosing boosts the entire base of the food pyramid and generally leads to vastly increased numbers of filter feeders all while allowing the DT to be fed more. So once again I don’t see why choose a DSB for feeding the tank. There are plenty of BB system that support amazing coral and clams.

So to circle back around, I don’t see DSB doing anything better than other export systems that are well established in the hobby or provide food or other benefits like pH balancing (reverse macro lighting), but once again you have something in your tank that can wipe out the entire system. Sure many go for years, decades even, buy why put it in when it’s not needed?

Unless you just like them! Which is totally fine. We are all in this to have fun and do what makes up happy.

 

[jzaso]

Lol, having fun with this!! but all those alternate methods you described have the potential to do great harm to the system if things go wrong-seems like a lot of time and cost to do what a simple dsb does naturally-a dsb does not need to be in the DT as it will limit your inhabitants- no diggers!!! My primary value of the dsb is as a food source(bacterial/patho) foods that are very hard to find off the shelf-IMO the dsb is the simplest most economical way to do many good things for the system if done properly-

 

[hart24601]

I don't see how a big ball of chaeto can really destroy a tank, or even a ATS. Even vodka dosing if you limit the size of the dosing container wouldn't wipe out a system if you had the dosing pump stick on. All the scenarios that those could occur are very slim as well and one could just as well argue that the weight of a DSB would crack the glass or something silly like that. Equipment can always fail in a spectacular fashion - DSB included. But with a DSB all you have to do is mix it or move it, or add to it too fast...

Using a calc online to have 6" DSB in my 120 I would need 280lb. I won't address equipment failure like the stand or anything else under the weight, just cost since you brought it up. Marine depot sells CaribSea Dry Aragonite, I am sure there are cheaper ones out there, but I would guess there are more expensive ones too, but this is $72 for 40lb. I would need 7 bags of that for a total of $504. Macro rocks has 40lb for $30 so that is only $210. But a ball a chaeto only costs sump space and a cheap compact florescent light. Totally automated vodka or vinegar dosing is $12 for a timer, $80 for a dosing pump (both these could cost nothing if someone has an extra head on a master dosing system) - so under 100 bucks for the equipment. A 100g tank rarely needs more than 10ml 80 proof vodka. A 1.75L container of cheap vodka here is $11. At 10 ml/day that will last around half a year, so ~$20/year in vodka. So even using macro rocks sand the cost is around 5 years of vodka dosing, or 20 years using the CaribSea stuff! No I don't expect the equipment to last that long, but you get the idea.

I don't really want to debate every little point, but hopefully I have brought up enough issues for someone to at least think about it if they are deciding if they are going to add a DSB.

 

[hart24601]

Lol, having fun with this!! but all those alternate methods you described have the potential to do great harm to the system if things go wrong-seems like a lot of time and cost to do what a simple dsb does naturally-a dsb does not need to be in the DT as it will limit your inhabitants- no diggers!!! My primary value of the dsb is as a food source(bacterial/patho) foods that are very hard to find off the shelf-IMO the dsb is the simplest most economical way to do many good things for the system if done properly-

If you are happy with it and like it than that is enough reason for you to keep it!

 

[jzaso]

If you are happy with it and like it than that is enough reason for you to keep it!

I'm done lol lots of good points on both parts,...had me thinking hard!! I agree about the liability of the dsb versus other methods but I will live with it imo benefits are worth risk, looks like I'm the small percentage but it's all good if it is successful for that person.

 

[Truetoheartcowboy]

I don't see how a big ball of chaeto can really destroy a tank, or even a ATS. Even vodka dosing if you limit the size of the dosing container wouldn't wipe out a system if you had the dosing pump stick on. All the scenarios that those could occur are very slim as well and one could just as well argue that the weight of a DSB would crack the glass or something silly like that. Equipment can always fail in a spectacular fashion - DSB included. But with a DSB all you have to do is mix it or move it, or add to it too fast...

Using a calc online to have 6" DSB in my 120 I would need 280lb. I won't address equipment failure like the stand or anything else under the weight, just cost since you brought it up. Marine depot sells CaribSea Dry Aragonite, I am sure there are cheaper ones out there, but I would guess there are more expensive ones too, but this is $72 for 40lb. I would need 7 bags of that for a total of $504. Macro rocks has 40lb for $30 so that is only $210. But a ball a chaeto only costs sump space and a cheap compact florescent light. Totally automated vodka or vinegar dosing is $12 for a timer, $80 for a dosing pump (both these could cost nothing if someone has an extra head on a master dosing system) - so under 100 bucks for the equipment. A 100g tank rarely needs more than 10ml 80 proof vodka. A 1.75L container of cheap vodka here is $11. At 10 ml/day that will last around half a year, so ~$20/year in vodka. So even using macro rocks sand the cost is around 5 years of vodka dosing, or 20 years using the CaribSea stuff! No I don't expect the equipment to last that long, but you get the idea.

I don't really want to debate every little point, but hopefully I have brought up enough issues for someone to at least think about it if they are deciding if they are going to add a DSB.

I completely agree. Never tried a DSB but I only have 2" in my 55g and cleaning is simple. A gentleman from over my way always says that if you make something easy to maintain you will be more likely to keep up with it. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID (KISS) is a phrase he uses even as a professor to his students and colleges and this man has three wonderful tanks. Over 1,000g combined in all and it takes him about one hour a week to maintain them all including display tanks, frag tanks, etc.

 

[s2nhle]

Great Thread! tagging along.

 

[jzaso]

I completely agree. Never tried a DSB but I only have 2" in my 55g and cleaning is simple. A gentleman from over my way always says that if you make something easy to maintain you will be more likely to keep up with it. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID (KISS) is a phrase he uses even as a professor to his students and colleges and this man has three wonderful tanks. Over 1,000g combined in all and it takes him about one hour a week to maintain them all including display tanks, frag tanks, etc.

I was done -now I"m not.. The DSB is the simplest method to maintain tank stability it is the core of the minimalist system-do a bit of research,
If properly done virtualy no maintenace-It provides nutrient control-buffering-trace elements-self sustaining food source-In nature it is a critical part of the reef ecosystem why would you omit from a captive system? takes a bit of cash(controllers-dosers-foods-supplements) to try to supplement what
DSB provides -far from a ticking time bomb if done properly-a dsb system is far more tolerant of a power outage than the highly controlled dosed computerized supplemented system-its as simple as it gets

 

[s2nhle]

I was done -now I"m not.. The DSB is the simplest method to maintain tank stability it is the core of the minimalist system-do a bit of research,
If properly done virtualy no maintenace-It provides nutrient control-buffering-trace elements-self sustaining food source-In nature it is a critical part of the reef ecosystem why would you omit from a captive system? takes a bit of cash(controllers-dosers-foods-supplements) to try to supplement what
DSB provides -far from a ticking time bomb if done properly-a dsb system is far more tolerant of a power outage than the highly controlled dosed computerized supplemented system-its as simple as it gets

How do I know whether I had properly done a dsb system? Would you tell me more about it? also would expand your thought on this sentence: "if done properly-a dsb system is far more tolerant of a power outage than the highly controlled dosed computerized supplemented system-its as simple as it gets" Thanks,

 

[vlangel]

How do I know whether I had properly done a dsb system? Would you tell me more about it? also would expand your thought on this sentence: "if done properly-a dsb system is far more tolerant of a power outage than the highly controlled dosed computerized supplemented system-its as simple as it gets" Thanks,

I don't want answer for Jason but I agree on many points. It is a low maintenance method of keeping a tank. I worked for a lfs in the late '90s and my boss had DSBs in the store tanks and installed many DSBs for his customers. I maintained those tanks from about 2004-2010 and none of them ever crashed or needed anything more than me dancing my fingers through the top 1/2" of sand. My own tank has a 5" sandbed. It's a natural effective way of promoting denitrification for reducing nitrates. At our store we put down a slightly coarser grain sand for the first 4" and sugar size for the last inch. That allows the finer sand to slowly dissolve buffering the PH somewhat. Aeration of the top 1/2" encourages aerobic bacteria colonization along with worms and and other beneficial life. If you see occasional bubbles escaping the sand bed and worm tracks near the glass most likely your sand bed is working. Of course 5ppm or less test results of your nitrates is also a good indication.

 

[Andy]

My .02 on a DSB. If you ever take one out of a 2 or 3 yr old tank you will almost puke from what is in there.

I have always had problems at about the 3 yr mark. Right now my 750 gal is having PO4 issues that I have not had in 3 yrs. Feeding is the same, GFO in use.

Next tank will has a shallow bed. IMO, the closed system we have & the amount of waste that is there is too much for the sq footage of sand bed.

 

[hart24601]

also would expand your thought on this sentence: "if done properly-a dsb system is far more tolerant of a power outage than the highly controlled dosed computerized supplemented system-its as simple as it gets" Thanks,

That's a good question that I am also curious about. From my experience dosing carbon on a timer, vodka/vinegar can really be stopped anytime and I have not noticed any problems needing a "taper down" methodology so in a powerloss they cause minimal harm to the tank. Likewise a ball of chaeto with a light on a timer should not impact the tank much if at all in a powerloss. In addition something like liquid carbon dosing if one has an extended power outage can just be shut off if you have to run battery backups on powerheads or a generator.

I am also curious how one can determine the total capacity of a DSB. I have new anthias and to conditions them I have my autofeeding going 8x per day and I feed frozen 2x plus coral food. Granted it isn't a huge amount each feeding, but having quite a few high metabolism fish in the tank I can easily remove their waste and export nutrients, but I do not think I could do that with a DSB, I would exceed it's capacity and have a real problem to deal with. I really believe we do not feed many of our fish species enough (like anthias) and DSB are really tough to "fix" when they go wrong.