Questions on overflow and all-in-one

[Wy Renegade]

I had this acrylic compartment built to create a all-in-one nano with a 20gal long tank. After getting and sitting on it for a little over a year now, I've come up with 15 different way to use it, so I have some questions for the flow and DIY experts.

My original intention was to put it in an undrilled 20gal long and just use it for a self contained nano. Now however, I've been wondering about the possibility of combining it with a drilled tank to turn the 1st chamber into a overflow/LR rubble chamber.

Then use the 2nd chamber for a maxijet to supply a algae turf scrubber and the third chamber as a combined return for the turfscrubber and a seperate macroalgae fuge (both of which would gravity feed back into the main DT).

Thoughts?

 

[Wy Renegade]

Wow 18 views and nobody has any comments or thoughts? Bumping it up for the afternoon crowd.

 

[drainbamage]

I'm going to admit I'm having trouble picturing exactly what you mean- is the 20 long with the compartment going to sit above the other 20 long? Or just sit inside a single 20L?

A live rock chamber is great (basically bio-balls but nature's way)- but not sure how you're going to have the turf scrubber set up- Ideally you'd want a very low or partially filled chamber for the turf scrubber so you can spray the water over the media/algae, which creates problems for then gravity feeding it back into somewhere. That's the only conflict, but otherwise sounds real nice- maybe put a bag of crushed oyster shells, or just leave them loose, in the first chamber. The high water flow should grind up the shells to a degree, and the minerals should help feed your turf scrubber/macro algae and have them growing nicely.

That's my thoughts (and similar to what I'd like to rig up on my chalice tank, overfeeding the chalices is causing a lot of nuisance algae growth that I'd like to get nipped in the bum)

 

[Wy Renegade]

I'm going to admit I'm having trouble picturing exactly what you mean- is the 20 long with the compartment going to sit above the other 20 long? Or just sit inside a single 20L?

A live rock chamber is great (basically bio-balls but nature's way)- but not sure how you're going to have the turf scrubber set up- Ideally you'd want a very low or partially filled chamber for the turf scrubber so you can spray the water over the media/algae, which creates problems for then gravity feeding it back into somewhere. That's the only conflict, but otherwise sounds real nice- maybe put a bag of crushed oyster shells, or just leave them loose, in the first chamber. The high water flow should grind up the shells to a degree, and the minerals should help feed your turf scrubber/macro algae and have them growing nicely.

That's my thoughts (and similar to what I'd like to rig up on my chalice tank, overfeeding the chalices is causing a lot of nuisance algae growth that I'd like to get nipped in the bum)

Hey Brian, thanks for the input, missed your response somehow. Sorry if I wasn't clear;

The acrylic divider would go into the main display tank, cutting its overall size back to about a 15gal. The first chamber would be a drilled, and then filled with LR, but I do like the idea of putting some crushed shell in there as well. The second chamber would hold a maxijet, which would provide flow into a seperate 5gal bucket with a algae turf scrubber set up within it. The bucket would be drilled so that as it filled up it would overflow back into a drain headed to the third chamber. The 1st chamber would overflow into a sump (I'm thinking of going cryptic fuge on this one) with skimmer and a return pump would return the flow back into the 1st chamber meeting the down flow from the bucket. The return would also be split to provide flow to an upper tank (15gal or 20gal long) which would be a visible macroalgae fuge and would be drilled and also drop down to the return in the 3rd chamber. Alternately, the return from the sump could simply return in another part of the tank, but since flow through a cryptic fuge is supposed to be slower, I'm wondering if the single loc-line return would handle all the return flow. Is that confusing enough?

 

[drainbamage]

LOL- all makes sense now-and honestly if we had a white board to draw on it'd be super simple to understand, text just makes it tougher but I think I get what you're saying.

Here's an idea- cryptic fuges demand low-flow, so why not have that be your upper visible tank? I imagine you want to have a visible macroalgae fuge, but for plumbing and flow, might be better the other way around. Plus that way any excess bubbles from the skimmer (if you end up with one) would flow into the macro fuge in the sump, instead of potentially damaging the cryptic zone. Though i'm guessing with the ATS you're not going to bother with a skimmer (?)

Either way- I think you might be best off having your main return feed just the ATS/main tank, and have a seperate pump/line feeding the other areas. Or optionally build out a nice manifold for the main pump, and just run seperate lines to each component so you can really adjust the flow to where you want it. More expensive and annoying to setup, but will give you a lot more control to each of the areas.

Might be more effort than you're wanting to sink into a 20 though :tongue:

 

[Wy Renegade]

Yep sometimes white boards are nice; I've tried sketch-up, but just haven't had the time to dedicate to properly learn how to use it. Cryptic fuges have to be dark 24/7 don't they? Not much point in having it be visible in that case, and easier to keep dark if its tucked away inside a cabinet. I also prefer the gravity feed from the fuge, so that pods, etc. aren't having to pass through the return pump. On having the return feed the ATS I'm concerned with the notion that it would be receiving too much flow. Yeah, dividing the flow from the return will require some type of manifold, thats why I was trying to keep it limited to only splitting once (fuge and display), with the turf scrubber on a seperate pump. My understanding of turf scrubbers from the admittedly small amount of time I've spent researching them suggests they need even a lower volume of flow and slower flow than a fuge? As for the skimmer, do you think a ATS is capable of replacing the skimmer altogether? I was simply considering it as a supplement.

 

[drainbamage]

I can't help much on the cryptic's, I've always wanted to do one but lacked a setup, so haven't researched much. I know the low flow is key and very little light, but you're right that regardless, it'd be silly to have a dark tank visible, especially if it was detrimental. agreed too on the pod fuge part, I've been wanting to set up an above-tank fuge because of that for a number of years now.

There's still tons of school of thought with ATS, as the basic design is really simple (put water over a surface and add light, you'll get algae.) The amount of flow and light, along with aeration, will dictate the species of algae you grow. Most people running ATS's aren't actually growing turf algae, but somehow the name has stuck. I'll try and point a local reefer who runs an ATS this way and see if he can chime in with his thoughts and experiences.

Depending on the amount of nutrients going into the tank, amount of water changes you expect to do, etc, there's no reason an ATS couldn't replace your skimmer. If you're planning on a stony tank or a heavy bio-load, only then would I maybe think of adding a skimmer on as well. Running a totally "natural" system would add to the fun of it though, so might be worth trying just for that reason and leaving space to add a skimmer if need be.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Would appreciate any help I can get on the ATS. Replacing the skimmer with the ATS would be an interesting experiment, especially on a system this small. Might improve things since skimmers are know to remove some trace elements during skimming, which can be an issue especially in a small system. Not planning on stony, I'm thinking Zoanthus gigantus dominated on this one. A purly natural system would be fun, but I'm going to have to get some more help on the question of DSBs in conjunction with a cryptic fuge or if they need to be seperate.

Anybody know anything on flow rates through a 3/4" overflow? Trying to figure out what size return pump would need to be for this as well.

 

[drainbamage]

here's some charts for flow, may not be exactly what you're looking for but might have some stuff that you can use.

GPM/GPH Flow based on PVC Pipe Size, ie, How much water can flow through Sch 40 Pvc Pipe Size 1/2" 3/4" 1" 1.5" 2" 2.5" 3" 4" 6"

Also, for the pump, finalize your flow directions before choosing, no need to waste juice on a big pump and have to turn it down.

My 20gallon is running with no skimmer, no fuge, no ats or anything, just live rock and a carbon filter. You should be fine doing a zoa garden with a natural system, and they'll probably really appreciate the slightly "dirty" water if anything.

 

[Troylee]

Randy can you post a end view of the tank??? I'm really confused...

 

[drainbamage]

Randy can you post a end view of the tank??? I'm really confused...

Don't do it Randy! if you keep him confused long enough he'll just build you the system to clear up his confusion :bigsmile:

 

[Wy Renegade]

Don't do it Randy! if you keep him confused long enough he'll just build you the system to clear up his confusion :bigsmile:

Wow, now there is an idea worth pursing LOL! Lee what do you mean by an end view? Might be able to sketch up something crude with my laptop and paste it up as a picture.

Thanks Brain for the link to the flow chart that was exactly what I was looking for!

 

[Troylee]

It would be much easier that way lol...

 

[Troylee]

Let's start from scratc here what exactly do you want out of this system or this system to contain??? I personally don't know much about a cryptic fuge either... Also thinking a ats with a skimmer/fuge/or cryptic zone etc is way over
Kill on the filtration.... Keep it simple add a fuge and skimmer.... Lol

 

[Wy Renegade]

Let's start from scratc here what exactly do you want out of this system or this system to contain??? I personally don't know much about a cryptic fuge either... Also thinking a ats with a skimmer/fuge/or cryptic zone etc is way over
Kill on the filtration.... Keep it simple add a fuge and skimmer.... Lol

Well you see, the problem is I want to try some of these other things without having to completely remodel and redesign my built in 65gal (which requires some remodeling on the house). I figure if it works, I'll be talking to somebody I know who works in acrylic to build me a custom sump to fit in the closet behind my built in tank .

I basically want a smaller system where I can play with adding or subtracting things to see what works the best or what doesn't seem to work for me at all. Does that make sense? I figure after its built and working, I can mod my 65 off of it and take the 20 up to school as a mini reef system to show students how the different methods can be set-up and how they function.

This tank will be designed around Zs-n-Ps specifically, and will contain few if any other corals. I'm figuring on a PE/Hawaiian theme overall for the tank. Does that help?

 

[drainbamage]

The person i was directing here is awaiting his acceptance email and will post ( I think he will, he's got a lot of good knowledge to share here)

but here's a communication from him

Hey Brian,
I'm not a member of that forum and am still awaiting the return email to be able to post.

I looked at his post and it seems like he wants to throw everthing in such a small space and the kitchen sink too. The bucket ATS is the best way for him to keep it seperate... however,
I would keep it simple (only zoos...right?)
as suggested with just the fuge and skimmer, then if he still has a nutrient problem maybe hook up the ATS.
The ATS would out compete the fuge for nutrients and it also needs MORE flow than the fuge NOT less.
The macros would be slow to grow.
Also he would need to skim occasionally or run carbon if running the ATS to get rid of any compounds put back into the water by the ATS.

That's about all I've got for him... hth
Brian

Originally Posted by drainbamage
Hey there Brian,

A reefer on reef2reef is looking for some answers on ATS's, and was hoping if you had a chance you might be able to give him some answers. He was originally thinking of putting an ATS as a supplement to a skimmer, but knowing the success you and others have had, advised him he probably wouldn't need to. But beyond that, I'm not much use as I haven't as of yet set up an ATS on a home system.

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/do-y...w-all-one.html

thanks and hope all is reefing well

=Brian

and no, that's not me having a conversation with myself, he's another Brian :bigsmile:

 

[Wy Renegade]

Thanks Brian, sounds about right, everything but the kitchen sink LOL. I'm sure its overkill, but its more in the spirit of an experiment with the possibility of expansion.

 

[drainbamage]

Thanks Brian, sounds about right, everything but the kitchen sink LOL. I'm sure its overkill, but its more in the spirit of an experiment with the possibility of expansion.

He's also an experimenter, setup his tank getting back into the hobby with no skimmer, just an ATS and running an LED system, so sure he didn't mean it as anything but sympathetic :bigsmile:

 

[Troylee]

I just think tour making it way over kill Randy I'm a true and firm believer in the kiss system it has never failed me man.... Run a fuge with a nice little skimmer and you should be set... Better yet go with a high flow sump and skimmer only and it would produce better results from what I have
Exp. My tank has a skimmer and lr only for filtration nothing else....

 

[Wy Renegade]

Probably I am Lee, but doing it on purpose. I've always wanted to try a display fuge where I can use to grow out some cool macroalgaes, and keep pods and other invertes that my favorite fish (the wrasses like for dinner). By placing it higher than the display, I'm assuming that the overflow will carry the pods down into the tank. The ATS system I want to build and try simply to do it for one, but also I figured it would help to hold the nitrates in check till the cryptic and visible macro fuge are both online. Then I figured I could pull it off and adapt it to a 20gal I have at school that is not drilled, so I can't run any outside filtration on it, and it always has hair algae issues. The cryptic, I just really want to experiment with; I love sponges and brittlestars, so I'm just curious as to how well it will function (sponges are amazing in their water moving/filtering capabilities) as well as what other critters will show up down there in the dark. The goal for whole tank/system is really to provide a home for my PE zoas so that I can mess around a little more with lighting, flow, temperature, etc. Others zoas grow well in my 65, but the PEs seem to have issues more than not, so I hope to do some experimenting and determine some optimal parameters specifically for them.