Red Sea Comparison of various methods for Nitrate and Phosphate Reduction Chart

[Joeganja]

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, that is just a marketing tool for their product. I could come up with a different list that makes their product seem not so desirable.

Some of the assertions do not even make sense. For example:

NO3-PO4-X and VSV reduce phosphate but vodka does not.
NO3-PO4-X and VSV are a "controlled" reduction but vodka is not.
That a refugium results in uncontrolled lowering of nutrients.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Nopox works great.

It's a decent chart from a more open perspective. Some people prefer different methods for different reasons, many think vinegar and vodka are cheaper, but ime it's just a few dollars if any difference from the 20$ 1000ml bottle.
I was using so little nopox on my 75 that it would have lasted 5.5 years. (though some say vsv will dose similarly, check out a few threads on the net about finding the 'ceiling' on the dose, or look at most dose charts)

Though Randy brings up some good points, I know someone who is a huge opponent of vodka(JUST vodka lol) says it was an utter failure, it's like "hippies on your lawn" referring to the bacteria. His argument was also it's great for nitrate as well but not for po4.
If you also are provoking cyano, you're not fully controlling the situation, thus leading to 'uncontrollable' outcomes.
Like a refugium as well, unless you've got numerical values that say "for every lb. of chaeto, x nitrates and y phosphates will be removed" then yes, it's "uncontrolled". A bit of a less critical point, but still fairly valid.

Just water changes could also be considered uncontrolled and it would be a valid statement from sever perspectives.

Though some debate this, it's the best I've found to at least semi-explain reasoning for certain events seen in our tanks. Honestly, I stayed away from Red Sea products and other companies stuff for years because "diy was so easy and effective". It was at times, but some things like nitrate and phosphate reduction I do not believe the diy'ers have fully cracked. I say this because it's more than obvious the results I've seen of vsv or any combo thereof vs nopox.
Some even refuse to use it because they think they know so much they don't have to. I consider this saying you don't have to ever try something to know you don't like it. (that's an ignorant statement in my book to defend one's choices thus making themselves "smarter")

It's the "where science meets the hobby" thread by Red Sea on RC. I've seen their description play out in my tank, was pretty stupid imo. Because I've tried a lot.

[[[edited: sorry, we can't link to other forums]]]

 

[biom]

NOPOX is ethanol (vodka) and acetic acid (vinegar)+ some impurities (because they are using denatured ethanol) like isopropanol and methanol + water.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I edited out the link above because we can't link to other forums.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's a decent chart from a more open perspective.

More open than what?

Secret ingredients with great claims without any supporting evidence are "open"?

 

[Joeganja]

IMO, that is just a marketing tool for their product. I could come up with a different list that makes their product seem not so desirable.

Some of the assertions do not even make sense. For example:

NO3-PO4-X and VSV reduce phosphate but vodka does not.
NO3-PO4-X and VSV are a "controlled" reduction but vodka is not.
That a refugium results in uncontrolled lowering of nutrients.

Can you tell me why you have your own thread and why you think you know so much about water chemistry? I just wanna know if you have a degree in it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you tell me why you have your own thread and why you think you know so much about water chemistry? I just wanna know if you have a degree in it.

This is what, IMO, qualifies me to comment on reef chemistry:

1. I have chemistry and biology degrees from Cornell (BA) and Harvard (PhD) including graduate courses in natural waters chemistry.

2. I have spent two decades researching and writing reef chemistry articles.

3. I have read literally several hundred thousand reef chemistry posts over the past 20+ years, so I am VERY familiar with both anecdotal as well as scientific data and results.

4. I have answered well over 100,000 reef chemistry questions online.

That's why I run the chemistry forum here and also started the The Reef Chemistry forum at Reef Central many years ago.

Happy Reefing.

 

[JimWelsh]

Randy forgot to mention his also having been honored as the 2007 MASNA Aquarist of the Year for his contributions helping fellow reefers to understand reef chemistry.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Can you tell me why you have your own thread and why you think you know so much about water chemistry? I just wanna know if you have a degree in it.

You have got to be kidding me...........
Tell ya what, heres a start of just some of the reading material for you......
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...spv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=randy+holmes+farley+articles

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Can you tell me why you have your own thread and why you think you know so much about water chemistry? I just wanna know if you have a degree in it.

There's a reason Randy's name is part of the the R2R chem forum name

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

More open than what?

Secret ingredients with great claims without any supporting evidence are "open"?

Sorry Randy, not getting into a debate about it. You don't know the ingredients and to continually strike up an argument like you DO KNOW what's in it has gotten old.

I've used it in my tank and seen the results, you have not.
Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for you, but speculating on things we don't truly know the components of is pretty unprogressive. (yes, somebody did an analysis, but again, not all components were identified, that's where the argument ends)
Ttyl

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry Randy, not getting into a debate about it. You don't know the ingredients and to continually strike up an argument like you DO KNOW what's in it has gotten old.

I've used it in my tank and seen the results, you have not.
Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for you, but speculating on things we don't truly know the components of is pretty unprogressive. (yes, somebody did an analysis, but again, not all components were identified, that's where the argument ends)
Ttyl

I don't recall saying anything negative about NOPOx in this thread, nor what the ingredients were.

What exactly do you think I speculated about?

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Sorry bro, not going to let you bait me into another long and drawn out debate.
I know you're smart, but for some reason you seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

There's 2 truths evident here:
1. Neither of us know what's in it down to the very last component. (unidentified substances are STILL unidentified substances; if you label all things contaminants when you can't identify them, then I've lost a bit of respect for ya.. )
2. I've seen it used in a tank. From what you say, you have not.

Cheers.

 

[biom]

I've used both- NOPOX and ethanol/acetic acid mixture - did't find any difference.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry bro, not going to let you bait me into another long and drawn out debate.
I know you're smart, but for some reason you seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

There's 2 truths evident here:
1. Neither of us know what's in it down to the very last component. (unidentified substances are STILL unidentified substances; if you label all things contaminants when you can't identify them, then I've lost a bit of respect for ya.. )
2. I've seen it used in a tank. From what you say, you have not.

Cheers.

No need to debate NOPOX, or even involve it at all to dissect some of the problems with the OP's chart from Red Sea.

As I pointed out earlier, they claim that:

1. VSV is a controlled nutrient reduction method, but vodka alone is not.

Does that make any sense to you?

It certainly doesn't to me.

2. They claim that VSV reduces phosphate by vodka alone does not.

Again, do that make sense to you?

It certainly doesn't to me.

3. That a refugium results in uncontrolled nutrient reduction.

Maybe they just don't understand how to control it, but changing the lighting times and/or the amount of macroalgae present certainly allows for control.
Do you see people around with out of control refugia that are driving nutrients too low?

 

[Downbeach]

Although ultimately I went to BP's, I've used all of the above, i.e. Vinegar, Vodka, a blend of both and NOPOX, I saw no difference, they all worked fine, except in my pocketbook due to the expense of the NOPOX.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

2. I've seen it used in a tank. From what you say, you have not.

Cheers.

Did I ever say I was unfamiliar with the results of NOPOX? I've seen many, many reports from people like Biom and Downbeach over the past few years who have not seen a difference between it and other organic carbon dosing methods. You seem to be the one person I've seen claim a difference. My conclusion is that, for most people, there's no difference. Whether what you observed was due to the chemical in the products, or other factors, I can hardly say.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

No need to debate NOPOX, or even involve it at all to dissect some of the problems with the OP's chart from Red Sea.

As I pointed out earlier, they claim that:

1. VSV is a controlled nutrient reduction method, but vodka alone is not.

Does that make any sense to you?

It certainly doesn't to me.

2. They claim that VSV reduces phosphate by vodka alone does not.

Again, do that make sense to you?

It certainly doesn't to me.

3. That a refugium results in uncontrolled nutrient reduction.

Maybe they just don't understand how to control it, but changing the lighting times and/or the amount of macroalgae present certainly allows for control.
Do you see people around with out of control refugia that are driving nutrients too low?

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. I have.

Good luck sir! This thread is complete for me

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You say it makes sense to you, but you are not going to give any reason why on 1 and 2? Makes me skeptical.

On 3, the people with out of control refugia that you observed couldn't just light it fewer hours per day?