Red Sea Comparison of various methods for Nitrate and Phosphate Reduction Chart

[Jstn]

Sorry, you're not making sense to me.

The NMR does not lack detail. It is very good at what it does, which is identify and quantify the hydrogen atoms present. Knowledgeable chemists can then determine what the constituents must be.

I have no idea what manufacturer of what manual reference you are talking about, nor what granularity of different tests even means in the context of a single NMR spectrum.

NMR is very sensitive, if its there it will show (organics), anything not shown in there is in such trace amounts its not even worth mentioning.

In NMR we trust !

If someone wants to send me a sample of this NOPOX I can run it on a 500mhz bruker NMR to verify

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Exactly!

As far as we know, there is no evidence that NOPOX functions any better as an organic carbon supplement than vodka, vinegar, or mixtures of the two.

If you find any evidence in the future, be sure to stop back and provide it. That would make this whole debate a lot simpler.

LOL you really don't like being the champion of information do ya?
I brought my experience to the table and you told me I'm wrong.

No matter how you spin it, that's what has happened, and you even admitted you've never used nopox. Therefore the only one spouting their OPINIONS is you.
Sorry Randy, can't dance around that.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

And here you again Randy. Clearly, an undetected segment in the 400/500 MHZ range, only visible in the 800.

Go ahead dodge the example..

 

[Habib(Salifert)]

Kungpaoshizi,

I am just curious.

If the following quote:
"As far as we know, there is no evidence that NOPOX functions any better as an organic carbon supplement than vodka, vinegar, or mixtures of the two. "

Would be rephrased as:
As far as we know, there is no evidence that vodka, vinegar, or mixtures of the two function any better as an organic carbon supplement than NOPOX

Would that make you happier?

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

NMR is very sensitive, if its there it will show (organics), anything not shown in there is in such trace amounts its not even worth mentioning.

In NMR we trust !

If someone wants to send me a sample of this NOPOX I can run it on a 500mhz bruker NMR to verify

I agree fully, but the info I found is comparable to the precision-factor found with many tools in science. You cannot see everything with a 10x microscope can you.. Yes, it's still a microscope!
In microscopes we trust!

And you can get real small bottles for cheap, probably cheaper than the shipping for me to send you a sample. But it seems since this endless debate with the "God of knowledge" never gets old, I guess I'll whip up the Triton stuff...

One thought I had about the whole thing, it's going to be funny doing an analysis of the two. I would bet nopox is made with di water, aside from the probable difference in formulation, what do you think store bought vinegar is made with?
Of course there's probably going to be a smart-aleck answer along the lines of, "oh well, you'll find that much -insert compound- in the food you feed them!"

I still think the arrogance here is incredible though. I've already stated something that holds a great deal of information.

Randy, if you really think you know a lot, please educate us on the roles of yeast and methanol.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Kungpaoshizi,

I am just curious.

If the following quote:
"As far as we know, there is no evidence that NOPOX functions any better as an organic carbon supplement than vodka, vinegar, or mixtures of the two. "

Would be rephrased as:
As far as we know, there is no evidence that vodka, vinegar, or mixtures of the two function any better as an organic carbon supplement than NOPOX

Would that make you happier?

Habib, with all due respect, you along with Randy are completely ignoring the basis of why I came to this thread.
I've seen amazing results with nopox compared to vinegar/vodka, period.

You both insult me and say what? I'm lying? I'm making it up? I'm the only person in the world who actually does?

It seems to me the only ones being quite rude here, are you. Aside from the other trolls who chimed in and said I was an idiot basically.

You guys have a lot to say, but you're the reasons a lot of people look down at our hobby.

 

[Habib(Salifert)]

Habib, with all due respect, you along with Randy are completely ignoring the basis of why I came to this thread.
I've seen amazing results with nopox compared to vinegar/vodka, period.

You both insult me and say what? I'm lying? I'm making it up? I'm the only person in the world who actually does?

It seems to me the only ones being quite rude here, are you. Aside from the other trolls who chimed in and said I was an idiot basically.

You guys have a lot to say, but you're the reasons a lot of people look down at our hobby.

It was not meant to be rude. I prefer to ignore instead of being rude.
The reason I posted is because I take what you say serious.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

It was not meant to be rude. I prefer to ignore instead of being rude.
The reason I posted is because I take what you say serious.

Apologies, I'm not here trying to make myself happy, I'm here to try and help others achieve results like what I've seen. The hobby and those who preach solutions for every single thing, really do more harm than good, especially when they bash other people's experiences like the way Randy has mine, on several different occasions. I given him guff and he'll give me guff, and it was fun at first, but I'm pretty tired of it now.

 

[Habib(Salifert)]

Apologies accepted

I think that nobody is doubting that NOPOX is better than whatver you tried before for YOUR tank. That is your first hand experience and nobody has doubts about that.
That is respected and (and that is meant to be very friendly) if you want to be respected than you must also respect the experience of others regardless if it is the same experience you have or a totally different experience.

Which skimmer or test kit is better? 50 brands, 50 different opinions.

For the one one brand will work better but for another it will be different.

If I would say Salifert is better than say API then people might want to question this and would like to see proof. Which is logical.

But if I would say Salifert works best for me and I tried many others before then most would respect that.

Some others would say the opposite.

That's why we have McDonalds, Kentucky fried chicken, BMW, Mercedes, Dodge etc.


Having experience is no proof. There is a major difference between those two and that is a fact which must be respected.

 

[beaslbob]

FWIW in my wife's 4 month old tank we started having cloudy issues.

My old time, often maligned, old school procedure is to simply kill the lights and suspend feedings until it clears.

At that point you have data with two points. one with lights and feedings and cloudiness, the other with no lights, no feedings, and clear. At that point you find an in-between point where things stay clear and things thrive.

anyrate the maintenance guy (who didn't even realize macro algae consumes ammonia directly) added nopox. and the tank cleared. And two fish died. And the chaeto in the sump wasn't growing very fast.

So we tried a vortex filter and it cleared up the tank rapidly. And a week later it was cloudy again.

But the maintenance guy noticed the concentrated stuff in the filter was yellow. (no surprise to me)

So he added a filter which had a uv light in addition to the mechanical. It cleared up and has stayed clear.

So while you experts cabitz back and forth, I'll continue to balance the tank with macro algaes and adjust things so that algae is in control.

But that's just my .02

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I do enjoy the macro tangents!

I was thinking about it earlier, and we're talking about formulations. Formulations of things quite similar, indistinguishable almost from the perspectives we've seen. But it reminds me of a very basic concept of chemistry. Hydrogen and helium, they're darn near the same, only a couple SMALL differences. No biggie!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

LOL you really don't like being the champion of information do ya?
I brought my experience to the table and you told me I'm wrong.

No matter how you spin it, that's what has happened, and you even admitted you've never used nopox. Therefore the only one spouting their OPINIONS is you.
Sorry Randy, can't dance around that.

You brought your experience to the table, and I compared it with the experience of dozens of other people and came to my assessment. That is what a scientist does. Those experiences include good ones and bad ones for all organic carbon dosing methods, including NOPOX. Just look around this forum and you'll see many such examples. It is always better to have more data than one point.

 

[omykiss001]

To get back to the root of this thread from so long ago that was all I recall any of us where asking for was did the vendor actually provide real data in comparable systems that show quantitatively their product performed better than other methods. Having the same individual shouting how great it is does not change my opinion that before I shell out my cash and use it over what works out to be an almost free additive of vodka/vinegar The vendor should get and provide the data. Whenever we develop new reagents for disease research the scientific community expects us to show this in a controlled study and even then they want to try and validate themselves they to get better performance than their current reagent. I'm sure I'll get the rant now, but I guess it's easy to ignore [emoji13]

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

And here you again Randy. Clearly, an undetected segment in the 400/500 MHZ range, only visible in the 800.

Go ahead dodge the example..

Dodge? How about explain NMR to you so you understand the error of your interpretations.

What example? That complex natural product with overlapping signals? I don't get your point. I am very aware of what an NMR can and cannot do, and what the field strength does to improve it. It says nothing to support your case.

It does not take an 800 MHz NMR to detect simple organic molecules. What is does take is a reasonable NMR (which was used) and someone who understands how to interpret them (which was provided, if you do not accept my expertise in NMR, by the University Professor who interpreted it for us).

If you are trying to make the case that there may be other large signals under the main signals in the NMR taken of NOPOX, you may need to understand NMR better to realize that is very unlikely. Any complex organic, like that in the spectrum you posted, will have lots of OTHER proton signals too. All over the spectrum, one for each different type of hydrogen. To have one fall exactly under the signals we assigned is unlikely, but moreover, we do not see lots of unassigned proton signals. The spectrum you posted is a very tiny section of a MUCH larger spectrum that contains lots of other peaks.

NMR is quantitative, and peak size relates to concentration. IF there are not other big unassigned (unknown) peaks, there are not going to be any large peaks hiding under the ethanol and acetate and methanol and isopropanol peaks, because no other small molecules fall under those peaks, and any large molecules are going to have other peaks show up elsewhere in the spectrum. Those are not present, hence the chance of other molecules being present at concentrations as high as any we identified is very, very low.

Sorry, but that's how NMR works and why NMR has been a critical tool for compound identification for many decades.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, if you really think you know a lot, please educate us on the roles of yeast and methanol.

Since you started posting this as some sort of gotcha point, perhaps you can explain what is important about yeast and methanol in our tanks that does not apply to bacteria or other organics.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

And you can get real small bottles for cheap, probably cheaper than the shipping for me to send you a sample. But it seems since this endless debate with the "God of knowledge" never gets old, I guess I'll whip up the Triton stuff...
.

FWIW, it is not necessary to belittle others if you have solid points to make. When you do, it just turns people off (besides being against the rules).

So, you never answered what you intend to show with Triton analysis of NOPOX when you said you are not looking for metals and I pointed out that is mostly what they test for, and I have plenty of the nonmetals they test for, so would not benefit from them.

So I'm curious what the idea is here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I still think the arrogance here is incredible though. I've already stated something that holds a great deal of information..

You mean your yeast comments? They only hold information if others know what you are talking about. Please enlighten us on how that relates to NOPOX in aquaria.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Habib, with all due respect, you along with Randy are completely ignoring the basis of why I came to this thread.
I've seen amazing results with nopox compared to vinegar/vodka, period.

You both insult me and say what? I'm lying? I'm making it up? I'm the only person in the world who actually does?

.

And other people have posted in this forum that they have seen absolutely no change when dosing NOPOX.

Does that mean either of you are lying? No. I never said you didn't experience what you claim, did I? That would be calling you a liar, and I never did that.

It means that different people may have different experiences, and so to come to my conclusion I have averaged the results of many, many people using many different products.

You choose to just accept one data point, your own.

That seems to be the difference in how we got to our different conclusions.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Apologies, I'm not here trying to make myself happy, I'm here to try and help others achieve results like what I've seen. The hobby and those who preach solutions for every single thing, really do more harm than good, especially when they bash other people's experiences like the way Randy has mine, on several different occasions. I given him guff and he'll give me guff, and it was fun at first, but I'm pretty tired of it now.

I never bashed your experience. I agreed that NOPOX likely worked fine. You want more than that, which I cannot give based on data I have seen from many users. I'm glad you like it.

 

[Cory]

What would it cost to know its components ?