Red Sea Comparison of various methods for Nitrate and Phosphate Reduction Chart

[Daniel@R2R]

I had KFC for supper because of the previous post...no lie.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

...but I'm afraid we might need to order more if you were planning to dip any to send to Triton.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Going back to the NMR for a minute...

Since Red Sea says the product contains methanol (on their MSDS), methanol should be the "mystery peak" just to the left of 3 ppm, the positioning of which can be verified by the value shown in this article for methanol and other solvents:

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~marisa/documents/OrganoMetSolv.pdf

I'm not sure what the tiny "mystery peak" near 4 ppm is, but it might possibly be ethyl acetate (with the other tiny ethyl acetate peaks at 1.1 and 2 ppm possibly buried under the acetic acid and ethanol peaks at those locations).

FWIW, both methanol and ethyl acetate are frequently added to commercial ethanol to make it not drinkable or easily converted into drinking ethanol (called denatured alcohol), thereby avoiding the tax and regulations that many countries put on ethanol.

which is from (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23041401&postcount=51)

 

[biom]

Hmm, I thought it is isopropanol (the tiny peak)?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmm, I thought it is isopropanol (the tiny peak)?

Yes, it could be. I'm not sure what solvent they used for this NMR and do not see the TMS signal at 0 to be certain of the exact peak placement.

 

[biom]

Yes, shermanator in post [HASHTAG]#127[/HASHTAG] from above mentioned forum determined this peak as isopropanol. I hope soon we will have analysis of another emblematic carbon source.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, shermanator in post [HASHTAG]#127[/HASHTAG] from above mentioned forum determined this peak as isopropanol. I hope soon we will have analysis of another emblematic carbon source.

Thanks. He may be able to see the peak shapes and such better, but I asked him there.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So the Prof who had the NOPOX run does think it is isopropanol, and he added that the spectrum was run in D2O (allowing one to look up the exact peak positions in the paper I posted above), so that does suggest that isopropanol does fit better since ethyl acetate should have a small CH3 peak at 1.24 ppm and I do not see one there, while isopropanol has its CH3 peak at 1.17 ppm, which is closer to being under the other CH3 peaks around the 1-1.2 ppm range. So I'd go with isopropanol too.

 

[slicko]

so with that information randy can you summerise what the chemical mix is in NOPOX? can you summerise the expected or exact amounts of ea chemical? and why do you think they would use this mixture as aposed to a VSV and claim it to be more affective means of carbon dosing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not know what types of chemicals might be in NOPOX that do not have hydrogen atoms (such as nitrate, certain metals, etc.). But the main ingredients that contain hydrogen atoms can be approximated by using a mix of one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water.

The methanol and isopropanol are present at much lower concentrations, and may not even be intended ingredients as opposed to coming along with the main ingredients (in denatured alcohol, for example), but if you want to add methanol and isopropanol in roughly the same ratio, add 3% of the volume of the vodka added for each of them (assuming you use 100% methanol and 100% isopropanol).

I do not know what sorts of experiments Red Sea might have done to determine their formula or to claim it is better than other formulations as they do not say.

FWIW, I'm not a big fan of stand alone sugar as more people seem to have issues with it than other compounds. When I tried it as a stand alone, some corals and anemones browned. There seem less reports of problems when it is part of VSV, but I don't generally recommend sugar.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Apologies as I got busy with real life, still have the triton tests in my desk...
Perhaps I'll get around to it, but not too interested in appeasing the same old naysayers..(you can do your own research and spend your own money, already happy with nopox myself so don't really care lol)

But I did do a lot of reading and I believe the methanol is completely intended, aside from other ingredients, known or unknown from that completely high-level overview of a test that isn't too detailed.

Look up the interactions of it and yeasts, and algae. (which still makes nopox a better choice for a more mature solution to our mini-eco systems)

 

[Justiful]

Considering the company makes or builds products for many of these alternative products/solutions does that mean they will quit selling them? No... ok then.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Apologies as I got busy with real life, still have the triton tests in my desk...
Perhaps I'll get around to it, but not too interested in appeasing the same old ignorant naysayers..(you can do your own research and spend your own money, already happy with nopox myself so don't really care lol)

But I did do a lot of reading and I believe the methanol is completely intended, aside from other ingredients, known or unknown from that completely high-level overview of a test that isn't too detailed.

Look up the interactions of it and yeasts, and algae. (which still makes nopox a better choice for a more mature solution to our mini-eco systems)

Methanol may certainly be intended, if only to reduce costs by avoiding taxes by using Specially Denatured #A alcohol instead of drinkable ethanol. They may like it there for other reasons as well. Without hearing their rational for it, its not possible to know their motivations. But the amount is small.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But I did do a lot of reading and I believe the methanol is completely intended, aside from other ingredients, known or unknown from that completely high-level overview of a test that isn't too detailed.

Everyone recognizes that hydrogen NMR analysis doesn't detect most elements without hydrogen atoms, such as trace metals. No one is trying to dispute the possibilities of trace metals (although the utility might be discussed).

That doesn't make the test lack detail. It clearly showed all of the organic carbon forms in it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Apologies as I got busy with real life, still have the triton tests in my desk...
Perhaps I'll get around to it, but not too interested in appeasing the same old ignorant naysayers..(you can do your own research and spend your own money, already happy with nopox myself so don't really care lol)

No rush. It was your idea to use Triton to check for metals, not mine.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Oh no, not meaning you in that statement.
It also was not to check for metals, it was for other ingredients than the oversimplified diy.

After what I've read from looking into the effects of ONLY methanol, I just laughed and realized I don't have to appease everyone on the internet because they refuse to learn things for themselves..

The test very well does lack detail though, unless you're refuting the manufacturer of that manual reference and the easily understood granularity of different tests.

It's ok though Randy, I know your argument basically comes down to "as far as we know".
I guess I just try to realize the possibilities of what we don't know, because we don't know it all.

Like this:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blo...-responsible-for-nitrification-instead-of-two

Just another reason I always say, we don't know it all, so don't pretend to! (cause then ya look like a fuddy duddy!)

 

[beaslbob]

but some of us are fuddy duddies

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It also was not to check for metals, it was for other ingredients than the oversimplified diy.

Like what?

Almost everything Triton tests for is a metal.

Only nonmetals I see are bromide, iodide, sulfur, boron silica, and phosphate. Triton calls selenium and arsenic metals, but they are not.

I don't recall any discussion of those and do not see any reason to think them important. Do you?

Anyway, aside from selenium and arsenic, my tank has plenty of these so no additional supplements would be useful for me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The test very well does lack detail though, unless you're refuting the manufacturer of that manual reference and the easily understood granularity of different tests.

Sorry, you're not making sense to me.

The NMR does not lack detail. It is very good at what it does, which is identify and quantify the hydrogen atoms present. Knowledgeable chemists can then determine what the constituents must be.

I have no idea what manufacturer of what manual reference you are talking about, nor what granularity of different tests even means in the context of a single NMR spectrum.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's ok though Randy, I know your argument basically comes down to "as far as we know".
I guess I just try to realize the possibilities of what we don't know, because we don't know it all.

Exactly!

As far as we know, there is no evidence that NOPOX functions any better as an organic carbon supplement than vodka, vinegar, or mixtures of the two.

If you find any evidence in the future, be sure to stop back and provide it. That would make this whole debate a lot simpler.