Red Sea NO3:POX4X Real Time Review.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I ended up shutting down the vinegar. I tried lowering the dose, but once that stuff gets going, it seems any carbon source keeps it growing. Most of it has broken down, so I plan to give it another week or two before I do anything else with carbon dosing.
.

When you say "stuff", you mean cyano?

 

[Big E]

In what way do you believe they work differently?

I don't have enough experience with both so that was probably pre-mature. I started dosing NOPOX recently to test it. I dosed vinegar for over 2 years and didn't like the long term results or just overall performance.

Some people have dismissed some of the minor ingredients in NOPOX as just there so they can sell the product over the counter.
Others have disagreed and why I decided to try Red Sea NOPOX over the home made for now.

 

[jason2459]

I don't have enough experience with both so that was probably pre-mature. I started dosing NOPOX recently to test it. I dosed vinegar for over 2 years and didn't like the long term results or just overall performance.

Some people have dismissed some of the minor ingredients in NOPOX as just there so they can sell the product over the counter.
Others have disagreed and why I decided to try Red Sea NOPOX over the home made for now.

Personally, I do see the methanol as a denaturing agent for the Ethanol. Very common practice and necessary.

I also know it is also a carbon source. I feel though it's an unsafe carbon source as its oxidation is rather damaging and harmful to many forms of life. So, yes it can help be a part of food supply for certain bacteria.

Just to throw fuel on the fire (I just wanted to make a pun here...)

Some have used stove fuel because it contains methanol to mimic nopox. Again, personally I think it's dangerous.

 

[Rybren]

There's a user on RC who is using that same Marine Alcohol in his DIY NOPOX brew. After more than a year, he hasn't seen any adverse effects.
I've been thinking of getting some as well - Drinkable alcohol is expensive here in Kanukistan.

 

[ttabbal]

When you say "stuff", you mean cyano?

No, the pinkish stringy bacteria colonies.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, the pinkish stringy bacteria colonies.

Ah, OK. That's a fairly unusual response to organic dosing, but I agree that if it is not going away, stopping all organic carbon, or at least the type you are using, seems appropriate.

 

[ttabbal]

Ah, OK. That's a fairly unusual response to organic dosing, but I agree that if it is not going away, stopping all organic carbon, or at least the type you are using, seems appropriate.

Most of it has broken down now. Hopefully the rest will join it soon. Didn't hurt anything, just looked awful. Planning on another week or two before changing anything if it keeps going the same way.

 

[potatocouch]

OK, after 3 months dosing, No3 and Po4 were measured at 0 ppm using Sera.

My understanding is Sera won't be able to detect ultra low numbers so I'm a bit doubtful on whether these #s are true zeros.

The reason i said this are because:

1. I can still see hair algae on the return pipe (particularly) and overflow box.
2. Wall tank still dirty by brownish film (of algae I presume) and need scrapping approx. 1 - 2 times on weekly basis.

I've since dropped down my dosage from 6 ml to 1 ml. It's 50g volume tank.

My question is: (If they are true zeros, which we don't want anyway) but if (say) they are true zeros, we shouldn't be seeing any algae growth right? nothing should be seen filmsy on the wall tank? old algae will starve and die?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, after 3 months dosing, No3 and Po4 were measured at 0 ppm using Sera.

My understanding is Sera won't be able to detect ultra low numbers so I'm a bit doubtful on whether these #s are true zeros.

The reason i said this are because:

1. I can still see hair algae on the return pipe (particularly) and overflow box.
2. Wall tank still dirty by brownish film (of algae I presume) and need scrapping approx. 1 - 2 times on weekly basis.

I've since dropped down my dosage from 6 ml to 1 ml. It's 50g volume tank.

My question is: (If they are true zeros, which we don't want anyway) but if (say) they are true zeros, we shouldn't be seeing any algae growth right? nothing should be seen filmsy on the wall tank? old algae will starve and die?

Photosynthetic organisms (algae, even corals) always need some source of N and P.

None of our test methods can read as low as ammonia, nitrate, and phosphate (the main sources of these for algae) often are on natural reefs, so it is fair to conclude that our kits often cannot read low enough to ensure that N or P are limiting to growth of any organisms in our tanks.

 

[Triggreef]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

I'm debating switching to this no3po4. in my 300g system I currently dose about 70 ml of vinegar p/d on a doser, and another 6ml twice a week in a denitrator. I have a huge fish bio load and struggled with po4 although no3 stays anywhere from 1 to 3 ppm on red sea kit. Everything I try for po4 either fails or is very expensive. Right now I have 2 reactors full of BA nopox and still dosing LC.

Better results for po4 removal? What dose should I start at assuming I will take off the vinegar in place so I can use that dosing pump for no3po4?

 

[jason2459]

Thats not much vinegar. I was dosing around 100ml/d on my 180.

That helped keep my nitrates below 2 and PO4 around .02-.08 easily.

Past few months I've switched to a vodka vinegar mix as posted earlier in this thread and since then my nitrates have been undetectable and PO4 under .04. I believe it was the addition of the vodka mainly but there is also a slight increase in overall carbon dosed as well. Math was done earlier in this thread too.

I'm not using the ratio that's found in nopox but what another poster had worked out over time to work best for him. Its a ratio of a out 690ml vinegar to 310ml of vodka. I use just store brand white distilled vinegar and bartons vodka. Both very cheap.

Nopox might work just fine for you but at 300g it will be a lot more money.

Personally, I would first try upping that amount of vinegar. Most people seem to end at around .4-.6 ml vinegar per gallon per day. For 300g system thats around 120ml to 180ml per day of vinegar.


Edit: I would also take the denitrator offline. They are good at the brginning to reduce very higb nitrates to managable levels. But it could be causing your nitrates to be to low limiting the ability to reduce your PO4 much more. Some people dose some form of nitrates to help reduce phosphates when nitrates become limited.

 

[jason2459]

Here's my posts previously in this thread that i referenced above.

Well, I went from dosing straight acetic acid to dosing a 690/310 ratio of vinegar/vodka. Not exactly the ratio known to be in NoPox but based on another member's experience (TMZ). I liked that it was more vinegar in the ratio.

I've used straight vinegar for many years. NO3 well under 5 via API and under 2 via Salifert. PO4 would vary between .02-.09. No GFO used. Algae harvesting in place along with a skimmer and ~1% daily automatic water changes.

I'd have to look back in my log but I would say the past 2 months now I've switched over to the VV mix. And other exports still in place. Still no GFO.

Visually I noticed rocks and sand were "whiter" with in the first week.

As for parameters my nitrates have gone undetectable.

My PO4 has staid under .03. Also validated by Triton a couple times.

Edit:

I guess to add this is in my 180g. Fairly heavily stocked and fed I would say.

Feed
automatically 4 times a day NLS pellet mix of Marine and AlgaeMax
1-2 sheets nori
3-4 cubes of meaty stuff.

Keep in mind I'm using TMZ's ratio of 690ml vinegar to 310ml vodka.

NoPOx has a ratio of 590ml vinegar to 410ml vodka.


Around 200g total water volume.

Here's what I logged in my tank journal on where I got to the dosing amount




And ran it by TMZ for validation.

His reply



And if working based on what I was dosing before.

~100ml/day @ 5% = 5

Now
~36ml/day
@69% vinegar @5% = 1.242
@31% vodka @ 40% = 4.464
= 5.706

So I'm dosing slightly more carbon then I was before. Biggest difference though is the extra type of bacteria needed to break down the ethanol to acetic acid.

If it ultimately maters though I have no idea. I do know I've tried bumping up my vinegar dosing in the past and I always backed back down to ~100ml/day not because of any parameters but because of excess white bacteria growth.

 

[Triggreef]

Thats not much vinegar. I was dosing around 100ml/d on my 180.

That helped keep my nitrates below 2 and PO4 around .02-.08 easily.

Past few months I've switched to a vodka vinegar mix as posted earlier in this thread and since then my nitrates have been undetectable and PO4 under .04. I believe it was the addition of the vodka mainly but there is also a slight increase in overall carbon dosed as well. Math was done earlier in this thread too.

I'm not using the ratio that's found in nopox but what another poster had worked out over time to work best for him. Its a ratio of a out 690ml vinegar to 310ml of vodka. I use just store brand white distilled vinegar and bartons vodka. Both very cheap.

Nopox might work just fine for you but at 300g it will be a lot more money.

Personally, I would first try upping that amount of vinegar. Most people seem to end at around .4-.6 ml vinegar per gallon per day. For 300g system thats around 120ml to 180ml per day of vinegar.


Edit: I would also take the denitrator offline. They are good at the brginning to reduce very higb nitrates to managable levels. But it could be causing your nitrates to be to low limiting the ability to reduce your PO4 much more. Some people dose some form of nitrates to help reduce phosphates when nitrates become limited.

Thanks for the info.

another question... I also add calcium hydroxide to my vinegar to reduce effects on ph. I assume I can continue that after basical adding vodka to the mixture then?

 

[slicko]

+1 too jasons post reply, i also was dosing 200ml of vineger for 2000litre system with no affect after 3-4 weeks i added 30% vodka to the vinegar bottle and within a week i had very low nitrate a phosphate. once again due to the strength of the mix i think.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I was dosing around 100ml/d on my 180.
Nopox might work just fine for you but at 300g it will be a lot more money.

In a 75 gallon I was using 1.5 ml per day. That was also feeding hourly with Reef Energy, and 8 times a day a mixure of dried copepods/rotifiers, nutricell, and B1/B2 pellets. So at 300 gallons, that would be, 6ml of nopox a day. Remember that was the dose I had to REDUCE to after the bacterial colonies were established. So with a 1 liter bottle at 32$ from amazon that's, 166 days of dosing.
100 ml a day, 1 gallon(3785 ml) of vinegar that costs 10$, that's 37 days a gallon, or 4.4 gallons to equal one bottle of nopox, or 44$ to get to 166 days?
Now to add the cost of vodka.... And now to increase the numbers, from a 180 to the 300 gallons the nopox calculation is dosing.
44$ multiplied by 1.6 equals 70$ in vinegar to equate to a 300g, compared to a 32$ bottle of nopox.


Sorry, not picking on ya, just using a real-world example to show that nopox is cheaper.

 

[jason2459]

You buy some expensive vinegar and vodka then. The math has been done many times. Nopox is more expensive.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Personally, I do see the methanol as a denaturing agent for the Ethanol. Very common practice and necessary.

Personally I see the methanol as a natural element that is present in the ocean. Very common practice of the sky and ocean interface, and necessary for many forms of life.
(punny no? muahaha)

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

You buy some expensive vinegar and vodka then. The math has been done many times. Nopox is more expensive.

I must be doing the math wrong then.
10$ for a gallon was pretty cheap on amazon

*edit
Yup, that's the cheapest, with free shipping
Unless you argue the 2 pack of gallons for 4.44$ is cheaper? Not even mentioning the 20$ shipping LOL (but that doesn't count towards the price of vinegar does it )

Peace out lol.. I see this thread has made a comeback, but still nothing new since post 297

 

[HiddenUser]

I've been dosing about 15ml/day of n03p04-x and my nitrates are hovering around 2.5ppm. I feed 3-4 cubes of PE Mysis daily. I had a bacterial slime explosion initially, but I cut the dosage nearly in half and everything seems to be fine now.

 

[jason2459]

FYI, I can get store brand Vinegar from multiple different stores for around $3 and under. Name brand around $3. For 1 gallon. I can get 1.75L of Vodka for around $10. Barton's was suggested and that's what I've been using. Even if it was $5 and $15 for each it's still cheaper.