Red Sea NO3:POX4X Real Time Review.

[furam28]

Especially when they don't even include something that is even printed on the label, and has actual functionality in the ocean in various ways.

Are you referring to methanol? The NoPox bottle itself says the methanol is for denaturing. I highly doubt Red Sea added it for beneficial purposes. You seem to be taking it a step further. Yes, methanol is present in the ocean. But there is zero evidence that dosing methanol is beneficial in a reef tank. On the contrary methanol is very toxic to fish and corals at low doses.

Yes DIY Nopox is not the same as Nopox. That's obvious. Like Popeye's fried chicken is not the same as KFC fried chicken. But at the end of the day, they do the same thing.

 

[jason2459]

DIY nopox as its coined in this thread is not anything new and has been around much longer then redsea's nopox has been around. People have been experimenting with mixing vinegar and vodka with or with out other carbon sources for quite some time.

I can't remember if it was this thread or another with the image of the label showing methanol included for denaturing.

Ah yes, here it is (quick search)

It is very hard to read this thread, not only because i'm not native english speaker. It is sad when I'm seeing provocative posts in this friendly forum ...

From the picture of the latest batch of NOPOX bottle label you can see they confirm that NOPOX contain ethanol, denatured with methanol, matching exactly conclusion of the Professor who did NMR, that probably they use ethanol denatured with methanol and isopropanol.


And what is connection between yeast and NOPOX? May be I missed something, is there yeast in NOPOX?

And to add - there is NO nitrates in NOPOX - after several tests including controls and dilutions I did'n find significant amount of Nitrates. Everybody could test with Salifert NO3 test - I found ethanol and acetic acid in NOPOX do not interfere Salifert NO3 test significantly, so if there is nitrate it will appear in NO3 test.

On a more important note I do like DIY KFC

 

[jason2459]

Since we're rehashing old points again its worth expanding on the dangers of methanol.

Methanol is not just toxic to fish but most life in general. It is not debated however that there are bacteria that will consume it. All carbon sources can be consumed or metabilised or fermented or oxidized (however you want to call it) by some form of bacteria.

You can look up various carbon sources and see what they break down too. Like Ethanol is conveniently broken down to acetic acid (vinegar) to create an additional step to be consumed again.

Methanol is reduced to formaldehyde and to formic acid. This can effect the nervous and optical sytem.

Methanol is then used to make alcohols legal to sell with out restriction because it is considered toxic and not suitable for consumtion.

There actually is a restriction in that it must be labeled as such and most commercial companies will need an msds sheet to cary it.

Redsea provides a warning on the label and provides an msds sheet warning of the toxic nature of methanol and the irritation capabilities of the acetic acid in it. Note it does not have to include all ingedients including ethanol.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know methanol can be a negative, but if you took the time to listen to red sea's explanation, it would make more sense.

I've never seen them say anything about methanol. Have you?

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Are you referring to methanol? The NoPox bottle itself says the methanol is for denaturing. I highly doubt Red Sea added it for beneficial purposes. You seem to be taking it a step further. Yes, methanol is present in the ocean. But there is zero evidence that dosing methanol is beneficial in a reef tank. On the contrary methanol is very toxic to fish and corals at low doses.

Yes DIY Nopox is not the same as Nopox. That's obvious. Like Popeye's fried chicken is not the same as KFC fried chicken. But at the end of the day, they do the same thing.

Can you show me where they state it's for denaturing? I don't recall seeing that.

And KFC vs other chicken is a perfect analogy. If you have pesticide laden chicken vs organic, or perhaps grass-fed vs non, the nutritional profile will be VERY different, and that's aside from other reactions given what's in each. You're arguing that exponential reactions don't matter much. :| (they're exponentially different!)

 

[jason2459]

Can you show me where they state it's for denaturing? I don't recall seeing that.

And KFC vs other chicken is a perfect analogy. If you have pesticide laden chicken vs organic, or perhaps grass-fed vs non, the nutritional profile will be VERY different, and that's aside from other reactions given what's in each. You're arguing that exponential reactions don't matter much. :| (they're exponentially different!)

It's on the bottle. Image posted in the quote above from one of biom's posts.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

My bottle says 'contains methanol', but it also doesn't mean it doesn't have a purpose.
But it still doesn't change the fact microbials use it, and nitrogenous substances at the same time.

But do you think they would add methanol if it weren't for a purpose? There's a lot of things in many industries that contain alchohol and do not use something else to "prevent" human consumption.

You guys keep focusing on the negatives of methanol and don't give it a further thought instead of looking into how it's used in the ocean.

Again though, if I'm wrong, why don't you write red sea and tell them they're poisoning tanks!! lol
Seriously, if it's toxic, why do nopox tanks look so good?

And as far as the NMR goes, I looked into that and even according to a manufacturers manual, 500 MHz did not reveal what 800 MHz did, so again, you're sounding pretty lax on your definition of what's the 'same'.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Oh, and you guys are perfectly fine with arguing with me or others, instead of looking into possibilities. That's why my patience is gone.
You're not hear to advance anything, just argue.

YOU came into the nopox thread, and started talking 'it's not all that'. And 90% of you haven't even touched the stuff.

That's arrogance.

 

[jason2459]

...
You guys keep focusing on the negatives of methanol and don't give it a further thought instead of looking into how it's used in the ocean.

It's use is limited and in our small closed systems potentially dangerous.

...
Again though, if I'm wrong, why don't you write red sea and tell them they're poisoning tanks!! lol
....

I have stated I don't believe the amounts in nopox is dangerous. At least as far as we know.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oh, and you guys are perfectly fine with arguing with me or others, instead of looking into possibilities. .

Nonsense. I've looked very extensively into folks posts on organic carbon dosing. NOPOX works fine. So do other formulations. I see no clear difference in folks experiences when looking at many hundreds of actual results.

The only clear thing, IMO, is that sugar more often leads to issues, and I do not recommend it.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

So wait, you first say 'potentially toxic' and then 'I don't believe the amounts in nopox is dangerous'.
Also 'it's use is limited'? Do you realize how many things can utilize methanol?

When I started to read up on the interactions on the microbial level, I realized I could read for months and still not have a serious grasp at every little tangent where it's utilized. But you guys have it all figured out?

And this is aside from the other compounds in the nopox, that were present in miniscule levels, that were not detected by the NMR. Yet 'nopox is just ethanol and vinegar!'. :|

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

And as far as the NMR goes, I looked into that and even according to a manufacturers manual, 500 MHz did not reveal what 800 MHz did, so again, you're sounding pretty lax on your definition of what's the 'same'.

Folks who are trained in, and have used NMR extensively do not agree with your uneducated interpretation. You simply do not have an adequate understanding of NMR if you believe that.

 

[jason2459]

So wait, you first say 'potentially toxic' and then 'I don't believe the amounts in nopox is dangerous'.
Also 'it's use is limited'? Do you realize how many things can utilize methanol?

When I started to read up on the interactions on the microbial level, I realized I could read for months and still not have a serious grasp at every little tangent where it's utilized. But you guys have it all figured out?

Yes, bacteria can consume it. No one at all has denied it. Yes, elevated levels of it can be toxic. No, the small amount in nopox does not seem to be an issue at all.

And I agree with Randy in I would stay away from Sugar.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Not sure why you're bringing sugar into it, but I'm sure it has everything to do with the conversation.

To the nmr data, which I already mentioned, I stumbled across a manufacturer's manual for an NMR, that included a comparison between 300, 500, and 800 mhz. The 800 revealed a peak which was not observable with the 500 or 300. Someone even said I was trash talking the guy who did the test because I bring this up. (again, avoidance to the subject at hand) And that again is another plus to the direction that the diy nopox recipe is not at all based on a full set of data. If 500 MHz satisfies a person's requirement to FULLY identify a solution, again that's either a 'hopeful' solution, or a 'limitation' of tools. I consider it to be like comparing a 1000x vs a 2000x magnification under a microscope. Take off the blinders... lol. We surely don't know it all but you guys don't even want to contemplate the possibility you could be wrong. I almost want to go through old posts and see how many of you call vitamin c dosing an uncessary practice, because with the new data found via genome sequencing, you would be absolutely, completely wrong. But would you accept it and explore things, or just say 'it's all relative'. (relative to whether or not you're part of the discussion! lol)

So, for all things being equal (using the same sample and comparing the same resonances), S/N is proportional to (Bo new/Bo old)^3/2. So let's say you're going from a 500 MHz NMR to an 800 MHz NMR, your gain in S/N would be (800/500)^1.5=2.02. In other words, going from 500 MHz to 800 MHz doubles your sensitivity.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/H...rence_between_spin_states_resonance_frequency

 

[jason2459]

.... Yet 'nopox is just ethanol and vinegar!'. :|

What are you arguing? Ethanol and Vinegar do make up the majority of the contents. Methanol a small percent. All three of those have been listed by Redsea as being in nopox among other things. No one has stated that's ALL that's in nopox. All that's really needed to drive bacteria sufficiently is Ethanol and acetic acid or one or the other alone.

Are there other ingredients in nopox? Yes most likely. RedSea states there is but it wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer lied about the contents of a product.
Do those other ingredients help? I have no idea.
Could Methanol help reduce nutrients in our tanks by driving bacteria? Sure but I know I can do it safely with out it but doesn't mean someone else can't try.
Can nopox safely be used? Yes, I believe so.
Can nopox work? Yes, I believe so.
Can nopox work just as well as any vinegar, vodka, vinegar/vodka mix? Yes, I believe so.
Can those home made mixes work just as good as nopox? Yes, I believe so.

Why do you keep going in circles?

 

[furam28]

There's a lot of things in many industries that contain alchohol and do not use something else to "prevent" human consumption.

When we buy ethanol in our lab, 100% ethanol is $180 a bottle, denatured ethanol is $5 a bottle. You know why? Pure ethanol is heavily regulated and there is a mandatory government fee attached to it. My guess is, Red Sea buys the denatured ethanol to substantially save on cost. If you are so sure that methanol is good for your reef, please start a thread where you do a daily dose of methanol in your tank. I'm sure your tank will look even more amazing. Let me know if you need some.

And as far as the NMR goes, I looked into that and even according to a manufacturers manual, 500 MHz did not reveal what 800 MHz did

So you've never used NMR in your life (I have) and you seem to know more about NMR by reading a manual, than many of the experts here who use NMR for analytical chemistry on a regular basis.

...instead of looking into possibilities.

You mean "speculating"? Have you heard of Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot analogy? Look it up. Maybe it will help you understand how your unsubstantiated claims about NoPox is just that.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

No one has stated that's ALL that's in nopox.


Do those other ingredients help? I have no idea.

Yes, they do. When I originally read the diy nopox thread with the nmr results, I laughed. Why? Because of what it answered, it didn't answer other points. But people turned around and just now say, 'it's ethanol and vinegar!' :|
Completely ignoring what else is in it, and ignoring what else may allow for better results than JUST acetic acid and ethanol.

And your second point there, exactly. That's what I would like to figure out but people won't even contemplate. Just as you say with your fair points, you don't progress anywhere with your answers.

It's times like this I have to wonder why scientists even bother doing any research, they just need to come here and find all the answers!

One tangent I didn't even think about is discovered here. (amounts of biomass)
These results were used to draw some conclusions regarding carbon use in denitrification filters. First, use of carbon sources such as methanol that promote specialized slow growing biomass populations may be advantageous for selecting against unwanted biological growth. It is suspected that in the MicroCTM and possibly the acetic acid systems, ordinary heterotrophic bacteria with high growth rates can easily accumulate in the filter influent piping, launders and walls, possibly reducing the substrate available for denitrification.

The other is interesting as well. Funny part is, it helps us learn. And according to some acetic acid is "better" but that doesn't seem to be the case with these results. Though at the same time, I'm sure this data will be dismissed because 'it's a freshwater system and not saltwater!'

Which I find funny because every little piece of data matters, because that's all we have. It may differ from each system to the next, but to say it doesn't apply is still an uneducated guess.

 

[Tautog]

I just started with No3Po4X this past week for gray algae and high No3'/s my No3 was very high after starting, and did a WC. The algae is starting to disappear. And I added air bubbles to the system at night to help with O2 levels.
Today, my adult sand sifter started with a balance and flared gill thing, then to spinning. Upon seeing this fish have trouble swimming, I removed it from DT.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

When we buy ethanol in our lab, 100% ethanol is $180 a bottle, denatured ethanol is $5 a bottle. You know why? Pure ethanol is heavily regulated and there is a mandatory government fee attached to it. My guess is, Red Sea buys the denatured ethanol to substantially save on cost. If you are so sure that methanol is good for your reef, please start a thread where you do a daily dose of methanol in your tank. I'm sure your tank will look even more amazing. Let me know if you need some..

I've not said methanol makes the difference, it could very well play a part that makes A difference.. But to mock me with dosing pure methanol and attempting to leave out details is the major shortcoming to which I refer.

So you've never used NMR in your life (I have) and you seem to know more about NMR by reading a manual, than many of the experts here who use NMR for analytical chemistry on a regular basis..

I'm pretty sure the maker of the NMR has accounted more in the use of their machine than someone who merely uses it. To dismiss a higher resolution will show you more is a pretty elementary attitude, which in this case I believe is tainted by pride. Like everything else in the world, 'read the manual' does mean something, and it's fairly important.

You mean "speculating"? Have you heard of Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot analogy? Look it up. Maybe it will help you understand how your unsubstantiated claims about NoPox is just that.

Incorrect. To sum it up:
We know there's more than methanol, ethanol, and acetic acid in nopox
We know other compounds can affect denitrification
We know there's differences in biomass according to the above studies, though it's parallel and not necessarily equally comparable to a marine environment
We know the diy recipe only contains and accounts for acetic acid and ethanol, completely leaving out at least 1 component
We know the NMR was a single, short, student-lead test, at a low resolution
We know that given biological processes and cascading effects of chemistry, the inclusion of a single component (methanol) can completely change the organisms present
We know other organisms can utilize methanol, vs only acetic acid or ethanol
We know the majority of people in this thread shooting down any possibility of nopox being different, have not even used nopox
We know the number of people in this thread being pro-nopox, is more than those against nopox
We know there's more that we DON'T know, than what we do know


So probability clearly dictates that there is more to explore, than not. I would like to explore this, but I get flamed for attempting to expand our understanding?
And I find it hilarious you bring a philosophical aspect into the argument, because like philosophers, you venture away from science into personal opinion. I used to date a philosophy major, so I know how insecure and completely unfounded the responses can be. That's aside from the mental gymnastics they propose to sway people from thinking for themselves.

 

[furam28]

I used to date a philosophy major, so I know how insecure and completely unfounded the responses can be. That's aside from the mental gymnastics they propose to sway people from thinking for themselves.

Sounds like you have some unsettled lady issues. Explains a lot.

You keep going round and round, but have yet to show any scientific evidence that NoPox is better than other forms of carbon dosing. Until then, all this argument is just futile.