Something is VERY wrong with my fish

[MUSBFRANK]

I don't know how to say this in a nice way, so I will just be blunt.

The worst thing you can do is have one foot in one solution and one in another. By now you should be close to therapeutic copper levels, and have a fishless DT for a week now. Are you using cupramine? What copper are you using?

We mentioned from day one that you needed the ammonia badge, not to use ammoni detoxifying products, etc.

You aren't committed to a solution and your fish will and are suffering for it. The fish in qt weren't exposed to a therapeutic dose yet. They were basically set in a strange tank and stressed out while still being eaten alive, of course they died. Stress kills but if handled properly it's the path of least resistance with an infestation as you describe and with fish you wish to keep. (So long as there is a therapeutic level of medication present)

Much advice appears to have been overlooked. You didn't do any dips to relieve fish prior to going in the DT which was also suggested so that it may provide immediate relief until you got copper levels where you needed to (therapeutic levels).

You aren't answering critical questions so that we can assist you. You're taking advice from several people with conflicting views, which is fine but pick one. Being on the fence at this point has likely costed some lives of fish and certainly unproductive time you could have spend towards the end goal solution.

I'm sorry to be short, I know it's confusing, difficult, irritating, and there is a lot of conflicting viewpoints. This is just not something that you can afford to be "wishy washy" about. Pick a solution that people you trust and feel have great experience and track record put forth (and you trust). If that isn't what we suggest, fine.

We are trying to help you.

Again, I am sorry if I upset you with how I said this, but IMO it needed to be said. We don't think any less of you, we have all been there. You just need to fully commit and act, and do it quickly. Halfway doing anything only makes the problem worse. Done properly and everything taken note of, gives you your best chance.

There are copious threads that are scientifically and experientially/anecdotally supported that have been provided here and are available to read on R2R.

I have thousands of dollars of fish, I don't even want to admit the total value of my collection because it's embarrassing. I didn't get here and invest in these fish without a clue of what I am talking about. That said, there are plenty others wiser than me. Let's rock and roll and save as many fish as possible. They've all been infected so long it may be too late for many of them but let's work together to minimize stress and losses. Most importantly, let's learn from it!

We've all learned expensive and sad lessons from mistakes. I wish you luck buddy let me know if I can help with whatever you choose. I'll continue to try!

This above to the 10th power!!! Everything has been said several times and you still ask the same questions (fw dipping, copper levels, remove all fish, ect), we get that you're in panic mode but either pick one of the solutions offered in this thread or one of your many other references! Every time something is offered, you seem to want to counter it with someone else's solution, you've wasted so much time waffling that your specimens are suffering because of it. Pick one person to deal with and live with it, I've done just about every method that's been suggested and they all just about worked every single time, and I always install a UV on every system as long as it has a chiller on it. Good luck.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

This above to the 10th power!!! Everything has been said several times and you still ask the same questions (fw dipping, copper levels, remove all fish, ect), we get that you're in panic mode but either pick one of the solutions offered in this thread or one of your many other references! Every time something is offered, you seem to want to counter it with someone else's solution, you've wasted so much time waffling that your specimens are suffering because of it. Pick one person to deal with and live with it, I've done just about every method that's been suggested and they all just about worked every single time, and I always install a UV on every system as long as it has a chiller on it. Good luck.

If you bothered to read the whole thing, you will see what I have done. Its' not a matter of second guessing. Its a matter of "do I really need to take everything out and stress them out more if it's only flukes and prazi works?". It's not about who says what, its about the right course of action.

 

[MUSBFRANK]

If you bothered to read the whole thing, you will see what I have done. Its' not a matter of second guessing. Its a matter of "do I really need to take everything out and stress them out more if it's only flukes and prazi works?". It's not about who says what, its about the right course of action.

I absolutely read the whole thing, that's where the frustration came in, built up, and flowed over! As I stated, you asked about dipping a couple times when that was posted "how to" early on, you kept asking about copper levels and that was posted early on, you kept asking about removing all fish and that was posted early on. These guys who are obviously here to help you had given you competent and solid advice, yet you wanted to use part of it and part of someone else's advice, this is certainly one of those hobbies where there might be several different solutions and it's hard to know which chef to believe but I would think one could conclude which chef has a solid resume. It was frustrating for me to read this ENTIRE thread because the advice was solid and you kept saying you read this or someone told you that. There's nothing wrong with asking questions but you were given several solutions to your problem and all you had to do is follow ONE of them, not piece them together. And it does matter who says what, you can't correct the problem unless someone gives you a competent solution.

 

[Cleo642]

I am sorry all this is happening to you. It does seem so complicated, this thread has gotten very long. It is easy to get confused.
Just let the main go fishless for 72 days, and treat and care for the fish in the qt. I know this has to be a stressful time for you and the fish.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Well, Im not going to get into specifics on everything, but I have figured out what was killing my fish. I do have several different things going on. IN short, everyone was right. However, velvet is 100% what is killing my fish. I know where I got it from and what vendor. It seems I am not the only one that has bought fish from them this has happened to.

Question. How long after you add a fish with velvet would it take to infect the rest of the tank?

 

[kschweer]

Well, Im not going to get into specifics on everything, but I have figured out what was killing my fish. I do have several different things going on. IN short, everyone was right. However, velvet is 100% what is killing my fish. I know where I got it from and what vendor. It seems I am not the only one that has bought fish from them this has happened to.

Question. How long after you add a fish with velvet would it take to infect the rest of the tank?

I would say as soon as the fish is in the tank the tank is infected. It would be hard to say how long it would take to effect the other fish. It would depend on how susceptible the other fish are. For example sensitivity to disease, overall heatlh and immunity of the others.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Im PO'd at this vendor because they are lying to everyone about QT'ing. Yes, I know they it is ultimately our responsibility to make sure we treat and QT. I get it, but to just lie. I have found out several other people now fish bought from them have wiped out there entire tank.

 

[kschweer]

Im PO'd at this vendor because they are lying to everyone about QT'ing. Yes, I know they it is ultimately our responsibility to make sure we treat and QT. I get it, but to just lie. I have found out several other people now fish bought from them have wiped out there entire tank.

The issue there in my opinion is that one persons "quarantine" is different than others. Some treat with medications regaurdless of the fish showing symptoms or not while others may observe fish for a little while, make sure it looks healthy and is eating. I'm sorry for all your troubles and I hope you get past them soon and are able to save some fish. I think this goes without saying but keep your qt set up for all new fish regaurdless of where you get them and if they are quarantined by who you're buying them from.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

I agree with you, however the "qt" room they showed me, was actually nothing more then an acclimation room. All they do I drip them into the system and put the fish out. They went on about their QT procedures and Im only finding out now, they do not do anything of the sort. I don't think I can mention the name because they are on here.

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

It is rare to find places that do a full blown treatment/observation for every fish. Some will run tanks hypo or use copper in their systems and observe for a while, but not for weeks on end. If your LFS actually does a full blown QT, then they should have a big room full of fish in various, self-contained systems waiting to go out into the floor to be sold.

 

[Humblefish]

Question. How long after you add a fish with velvet would it take to infect the rest of the tank?

It depends on whether or not the infected fish was exposed to subtherapeutic copper beforehand. Some LFS run copper in their fish systems to kill parasites. However, many don't test on a daily basis to ensure the copper level remains at therapeutic levels. When fish & parasites are kept in low copper what happens is some of the free swimmers die, but not all. So fish continue to get infected, but symptoms are hardly noticeable because the infestation is so light. This is commonly referred to as disease masking. When a "masked fish" is taken out of low level copper and put into an aquarium with no copper, symptoms come roaring back but because the infestation was so light to begin with it can take 2-3 weeks before obvious symptoms present themselves.

Now, if you go to Petco and buy a fish with velvet, the disease will spread and usually start killing off all your other fish within a week because they don't treat with any chemicals. Unless one of their employees sneaks some herbal stuff in the tanks.

 

[MUSBFRANK]

Every single lfs that I go to ALWAYS has sick fish in at least half of their aquariums, not all of the fish are sick but there's always several sick specimens in these display tanks. I can't even begin to tell you how frustrating and unbelievably sad it is to see so many specimens to have safely made this far into this spectacular hobby, only to watch them slowly/quickly suffer a horrible death because store owners don't take the simple step of adding copper to their systems and or treating others in a separate qt with proper meds. I constantly see fish killing one another or beating the crap out of each other because nobody is paying attention to the actual fish, employees are standing around, talking to each other, fronting drygoods, doing water changes, or even scrubbing away algae, but not taking care of the fish. Stores nowadays (at least the ones I've been to) seem to put all their energy, time, focus, and money into their reef section seeing as that part of the hobby has grown exponentially over the past decade or so. I get so frustrated when I see fish trying to rub or scratch off parasites that are eating them alive is just sickening, even worse when the tanks have zero rocks or gravel and all the fish can use is the sides or bottom of the glass to do so. Oh and trying to respectfully offer advice to store personnel is always met with defensive ego pushback. I don't know what it's going to take to get any of my lfs to get with the program but I'd just assume they close their fish sections and just keep corals and inverts only unless they're willing to do more for the fish. End rant! :O

 

[4FordFamily]

Every single lfs that I go to ALWAYS has sick fish in at least half of their aquariums, not all of the fish are sick but there's always several sick specimens in these display tanks. I can't even begin to tell you how frustrating and unbelievably sad it is to see so many specimens to have safely made this far into this spectacular hobby, only to watch them slowly/quickly suffer a horrible death because store owners don't take the simple step of adding copper to their systems and or treating others in a separate qt with proper meds. I constantly see fish killing one another or beating the crap out of each other because nobody is paying attention to the actual fish, employees are standing around, talking to each other, fronting drygoods, doing water changes, or even scrubbing away algae, but not taking care of the fish. Stores nowadays (at least the ones I've been to) seem to put all their energy, time, focus, and money into their reef section seeing as that part of the hobby has grown exponentially over the past decade or so. I get so frustrated when I see fish trying to rub or scratch off parasites that are eating them alive is just sickening, even worse when the tanks have zero rocks or gravel and all the fish can use is the sides or bottom of the glass to do so. Oh and trying to respectfully offer advice to store personnel is always met with defensive ego pushback. I don't know what it's going to take to get any of my lfs to get with the program but I'd just assume they close their fish sections and just keep corals and inverts only unless they're willing to do more for the fish. End rant! :O

This is why I generally buy online from sources that source directly from the warehouse distributor and treat all fish as if they're sick.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Alright, this thread is way too long so

This is why I generally buy online from sources that source directly from the warehouse distributor and treat all fish as if they're sick.

I wouldn't buy where I PM'd you about.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

So because this thread is so long I need a few more answers.

Is the Fallow period 6 weeks for velvet?
My copper levels are .25 currently. The therapeutic level is .30-.50 correct?
How long do I keep them in the copper for?
Ich is 72 days follow, correct? Why is that long?
When I reach the end of the fallow period, do I drip acclimate back into the main tank or should match salinity temperature in both?

 

[Humblefish]

@MUSBFRANK You hit the nail on the head about corals. That is most LFS priority nowadays. The fish are an afterthought. The goal is to flip the fish as quickly as possible before they start dying.

 

[Humblefish]

Is the Fallow period 6 weeks for velvet?

Yes

My copper levels are .25 currently. The therapeutic level is .30-.50 correct?

0.35-0.5

How long do I keep them in the copper for?

1 month

Ich is 72 days follow, correct? Why is that long?

Because is one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts.

When I reach the end of the fallow period, do I drip acclimate back into the main tank or should match salinity temperature in both?

Best to temp/SG match your QT to the DT, and just add them back without any acclimation. However, I wouldn't add them all back right away. Your bacterial levels may no longer be able to support that many fish. Add 2-3 fish back every week after the fallow period has ended.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Yes



0.35-0.5



1 month



Because is one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts.



Best to temp/SG match your QT to the DT, and just add them back without any acclimation. However, I wouldn't add them all back right away. Your bacterial levels may no longer be able to support that many fish. Add 2-3 fish back every week after the fallow period has ended.

OK good to know. Also, during Fallow period, should I add some food to feed the tank?

 

[Humblefish]

OK good to know. Also, during Fallow period, should I add some food to feed the tank?

Yes, a pinch of flake every 2-3 days is a good idea to maintain bacteria levels. Also, keep feeding your corals/inverts as you normally would.

This is a good read with more info: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods.190324/

 

[Paul B]

[/QUOTE] There is no protection from parasites inside the gills, thus offering the path of least resistance. So external parasites (exs. ich, velvet) will often attack the gills first. When this happens, fluid builds up inside a fish's gills and if there are too many parasites/too much fluid the fish dies due to asphyxiation. When you start seeing evidence of external parasites on the skin (i.e. the white dots) that means a fish is pretty heavily infested and his immune system has been compromised.[/QUOTE]

Actually, there is protection from parasites in the gills:
Quote:

3. The Cutaneous Mucus Layer
The mucosal surfaces of fishes (gill, skin, and gastrointestinal tract) form a thin physical barrier between the external environment and the internal milieu, and they are important sites of microbial exposure. Host defence mechanisms and their epithelia (with living cells) are covered by a protective mucus overlay [65, 78]. Cutaneous mucus is considered the first line of defence against infection through skin epidermis [16, 65].

The fish skin mucus acts as a natural, physical, biochemical, dynamic, and semipermeable barrier that enables the exchange of nutrients, water, gases, odorants, hormones, and gametes. Concomitantly, mucus plays a critical role in the defence mechanism of the fishes by also acting as a biological barrier [79–81]. Skin mucus has evolved to have robust mechanisms that can trap and immobilize pathogens before they can contact epithelial surfaces, because it is impermeant to most bacteria and many pathogens [82]. This occurs because in this mucus layer, particles, bacteria, or viruses are entrapped and removed from the mucosa by the water current [83]. Furthermore, mucus in most fishes is continuously secreted and replaced, which prevents the stable colonization of potential infectious microorganisms as well as invasion of metazoan parasites

Reference:
ISRN Immunology
Volume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pages
http://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470
Review Article
An Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish Skin
María Ángeles Esteban
Fish Innate Immune System Group, Department of Cell Biology and Histology, Faculty of Biology, University of Murcia, Regional Campus of International Excellence “Campus Mare Nostrum”, 30100 Murcia, Spain

Received 26 August 2012; Accepted 12 September 2012

Academic Editors: A. Bensussan, E. Flaño, J. D. Hayball, and P. Puccetti

Copyright © 2012 María Ángeles Esteban. This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.