The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)
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OP
OP
Please do
laverda
2500 Club Member
Glenn
Thank you for the reply. I will check out the links shortly.
My nitrates are at 25 and phosphates were at 3. using Salifert test kits. Starting Aug 11 I have been dosing vinegar daily and dosed 10ml of iron one time. Starting Aug 18 I have been dosing 1ml of iron. I dose these in to my overflow. The NO3 has not changed yet that I can measure. The PO4 has dropped to 2. My gorgonias have had longer polyp extension and some of my polyps are extended more.
I am working on getting more test kits. The Sera Fe kit is only availabe from one place that I could find in the US. It looks like Sera kits are no longer coming to the USA, so I wondered how old the Fe one will be. I can not find the Salifert Boron kit at all. Are there alternatives to these
Suprisingly, my skimmer seams to be skimming out a lot less. I have adjusted it twice to skim more.
OP
OP
Po4 ??? Beter use a redsea, elos or hanna phosphorus(hi736) test.
Fe test .. No problem (iron will not stay in suspension anyway). The Fe test was to make sure you're not overdosing..
I've been dosing iron for a long time, without any sign of iron creeping up and become toxic
Iron is dosing is very beneficial for the reeftank. Without that i would not have any of the results i have now.
Then tests i recommend are very common in Holland.
Look for example at dutch LFS like www.seaflower.nl
I Only know the salifert Boron test.
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OP
OP
I don't have any scienctific evidence except it's available in nsw and most reefsalt include them.
I believe coral skeleton also include a sustantial percentage Sr.
Most people do wc and replenish (maybe) just enough.
In DSR i don't do WC and saw both going down ver quickly.
When i decide to "reinvent" my own salt i included the basic, which included Sr, K, I2, B. So i also decided it was essential to keep track of them.
For years i did my tank without wc
(2004 -2011) and without any special supplements.
My tank was just fine exect for the sps part.. They kept dying after a while.
It's only when instarted doing what i do now (dosing supplements), that pushed my tank up to the level it's now.
So for me it's a no consideration to change any supplements, just to wait for the result to deteriorate..
For myself and many dutch reefer this way of working is less effort, less money and space wasted on waterquality management.
OP
OP
Part 1 is another interview i believe.
OP
OP
Hi randy as i mentioned before, most people do periodic wc.I too would be interested to see any careful experiments where the dosing was started or stopped for just these additives and the effects observed, when no other changes were made.
As Kungpaoshizi alludes, I have seen no convincing evidence overall that supplemental strontium and iodine are useful for most organisms that we keep, despite many people using them. IME, neither were useful additives, and many people have seen the same lack of effect when they stopped dosing.
Reefsalt include both, this should (suppose to) be just enough to keep it available for those "organisms" in need of the elements.
Additional supplementing in those cases may not reveal anything.
OP
OP
That not the same formula i use for iron dosing. (Can't reveal)
But maybe by experimenting it can be determined that it works (but i can't be sure of the dosing volume and frequency).
OP
OP
Don't discard the role of wc in replennishing those elements we don't thinks of.See that's the thing though, I've seen at least a few articles that even merely, at the very least, suggest, it is. Though our knowledge of the organisms is not mature enough to understand why. Go back to that strontium thread we had recently, read that last link that talks about bio-composites.
But to the matter at hand, perhaps I'll post on the DSR forum as it will be more appropriate because I imagine there's a lot more individuals to get numbers from. After all Randy, we're both only 2 individuals in a great big wide world..(thanks for chiming in though, I wondered if you were lurking about!
In DSR there is NO WC to do that. So i decided it was saver and easier to dose.
So yes .. it's a (safe) assumptiom the tank,s are benefitting of the total plan.
In don't dare to leaf it out because it,s such a small piece of the total picture/puzzle.
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OP
OP
I don't know either randy.
It would be interrested to find out more about how all things work. But there are many things we do in life without any second thoughts, because it's easy. We only put effort in things that annoy us, we care (enough) for, or can benefit us.
OP
OP
Agreed.. also learned from randy
OP
OP
MFW ?
Haha.. you just gave me a new idea
I guest nature also need some PO4 and NO3 supplementing.
Did I have a foresight, when i decided to supplement both into my tank ?
Maybee as a final finishing touch, i should try peeying into my tank also (seriously .... this was a joke!!!)
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/fish-pee-is-vital-to-reef-health
Kungpaoshizi
Valuable Member
Here's a couple links I thought was very interesting I came across at one point. One seems to contradict the ideal of str being mistaken for ca. (if I'm understanding that correctly) and the others touch on some other details about the biology and what might be happening. I love reading this stuff as it's nothing comparable to what's found on the forums. I wish more researchers would join the forums but I could understand why they don't!
I agree though, we've not really learned too much about why corals do what they do, but given they've been around longer than us, I'm not too quick to think I know more than the organism. I did have the thought the other day you relay, I don't believe there's any salt mixes that do not include the str/potassium/br/b/moly/etc that's been questioned so heavily as "necessary". Might be an interesting experiment though I would bet you've already seen that in the results of sps dying off after time of no supplementation...
Anyways, enjoy! Waiting for the DSR site to come back up to learn more!
However, Sr2+ and Ca2+ deposition in G. fascicularis does not appear to involve similar biochemical mechanisms.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=A8D7351290BB77630252D0D2F20F7083.f04t03
Abstract
Systematic studies on the Mg distributions, the crystal orientations, the formation mechanisms and the mechanical properties of biogenic high-Mg calcites in different marine organisms were summarized in detail in this review. The high-Mg calcites in the hard tissues of marine organisms mentioned generally own a few common features as follows. Firstly, the Mg distribution is not uniform in most of the minerals. Secondly, high-Mg calcite biominerals are usually composed of nanoparticles that own almost the same crystallographic orientations and thus they behave like single crystals or mesocrystals. Thirdly, the formation of thermodynamically unstable high-Mg calcites in marine organisms under mild conditions is affected by three key factors, that is, the formation of amorphous calcium (magnesium) carbonate precursor, the control of polymorph via biomolecules and the high Mg/Ca ratios in modern sea. Lastly, the existence of Mg ions in the Mg-containing calcite may improve the mechanical properties of biogenic minerals. Furthermore, the key progress in the synthesis of high-Mg calcites in the laboratory based on the formation mechanisms of the biogenic high-Mg calcites was reviewed. Many researchers have realized the synthesis of high-Mg calcites in the laboratory under ambient conditions with the help of intermediate amorphous phase, mixed solvents, organic/inorganic surfaces and soluble additives. Studies on the structural analysis and formation mechanisms of thermodynamically unstable biogenic high-Mg calcite minerals may shed light on the preparation of functional materials with enhanced mechanical properties.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1047847713003031
The development of chemical routes leading to controlled crystallization is an important requirement in the synthesis of crystalline materials for various applications. New synthetic approaches are often inspired by biology, which shows countless examples of biogenic crystals with finely tuned sizes, shapes, crystallographic orientation, polymorphs, etc.1 In particular, the importance of calcium carbonates in nature has led to extensive studies of CaCO3 crystallization using two main bioinspired methods: (i) templating by structured organic surfaces,2-4 such as self-assembled monolayers (SAMs), Langmuir monolayers, biomacromolecules, and functionalized polymers; and (ii) solution precipitation with growth modifiers,5-8 such as ions, proteins, and synthetic polymers.
.....
....
In summary, we have demonstrated the highly controlled synthesis of calcite with uniform nucleating plane, size, and morphology, by combining the MUA-SAM-induced oriented nucleation with the addition of Mg2+ ions to the growth solution. The ability to form a statistically significant number of homogeneous crystals makes this approach suitable for detailed studies of the mechanisms of the oriented nucleation and of the incorporation of the impurities into the crystals. We suggest, therefore, that the use of the templating by chemically modified surfaces together with specialized growth modifiers in the crystallizing solution is a promising chemical route to yield high-level control of multiple parameters of crystallization in one experiment, including crystal orientation, size, shape, polymorph, and stability.
http://aizenberglab.seas.harvard.edu/files/2003_JACS_0.pdf
I agree though, we've not really learned too much about why corals do what they do, but given they've been around longer than us, I'm not too quick to think I know more than the organism. I did have the thought the other day you relay, I don't believe there's any salt mixes that do not include the str/potassium/br/b/moly/etc that's been questioned so heavily as "necessary". Might be an interesting experiment though I would bet you've already seen that in the results of sps dying off after time of no supplementation...
Anyways, enjoy! Waiting for the DSR site to come back up to learn more!
However, Sr2+ and Ca2+ deposition in G. fascicularis does not appear to involve similar biochemical mechanisms.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=A8D7351290BB77630252D0D2F20F7083.f04t03
Abstract
Systematic studies on the Mg distributions, the crystal orientations, the formation mechanisms and the mechanical properties of biogenic high-Mg calcites in different marine organisms were summarized in detail in this review. The high-Mg calcites in the hard tissues of marine organisms mentioned generally own a few common features as follows. Firstly, the Mg distribution is not uniform in most of the minerals. Secondly, high-Mg calcite biominerals are usually composed of nanoparticles that own almost the same crystallographic orientations and thus they behave like single crystals or mesocrystals. Thirdly, the formation of thermodynamically unstable high-Mg calcites in marine organisms under mild conditions is affected by three key factors, that is, the formation of amorphous calcium (magnesium) carbonate precursor, the control of polymorph via biomolecules and the high Mg/Ca ratios in modern sea. Lastly, the existence of Mg ions in the Mg-containing calcite may improve the mechanical properties of biogenic minerals. Furthermore, the key progress in the synthesis of high-Mg calcites in the laboratory based on the formation mechanisms of the biogenic high-Mg calcites was reviewed. Many researchers have realized the synthesis of high-Mg calcites in the laboratory under ambient conditions with the help of intermediate amorphous phase, mixed solvents, organic/inorganic surfaces and soluble additives. Studies on the structural analysis and formation mechanisms of thermodynamically unstable biogenic high-Mg calcite minerals may shed light on the preparation of functional materials with enhanced mechanical properties.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1047847713003031
The development of chemical routes leading to controlled crystallization is an important requirement in the synthesis of crystalline materials for various applications. New synthetic approaches are often inspired by biology, which shows countless examples of biogenic crystals with finely tuned sizes, shapes, crystallographic orientation, polymorphs, etc.1 In particular, the importance of calcium carbonates in nature has led to extensive studies of CaCO3 crystallization using two main bioinspired methods: (i) templating by structured organic surfaces,2-4 such as self-assembled monolayers (SAMs), Langmuir monolayers, biomacromolecules, and functionalized polymers; and (ii) solution precipitation with growth modifiers,5-8 such as ions, proteins, and synthetic polymers.
.....
....
In summary, we have demonstrated the highly controlled synthesis of calcite with uniform nucleating plane, size, and morphology, by combining the MUA-SAM-induced oriented nucleation with the addition of Mg2+ ions to the growth solution. The ability to form a statistically significant number of homogeneous crystals makes this approach suitable for detailed studies of the mechanisms of the oriented nucleation and of the incorporation of the impurities into the crystals. We suggest, therefore, that the use of the templating by chemically modified surfaces together with specialized growth modifiers in the crystallizing solution is a promising chemical route to yield high-level control of multiple parameters of crystallization in one experiment, including crystal orientation, size, shape, polymorph, and stability.
http://aizenberglab.seas.harvard.edu/files/2003_JACS_0.pdf
Randy Holmes-Farley
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My interpretation of those studies involving strontium do not suggest it is being intentionally used by corals, but this probably isn't the best place to debate that extensively.
The first link says:
"The rate of 90Sr2+ deposition in Galaxea fascicularis was linear with respect to Sr2+ concentration (0.01–20 mM) "
Which is exactly what is expected (and obtained) from random replacement of calcium in the CaCO3 structure by strontium. Such substitution would be linear, and the coral is getting much less than normal at low levels of Sr and much more than normal incorporation of Sr at high solution levels, suggesting no control over the effect.
Calcium shows saturation kinetics because it is actively taken up by the coral, and that active uptake saturates at very high concentration.
The first link says:
"The rate of 90Sr2+ deposition in Galaxea fascicularis was linear with respect to Sr2+ concentration (0.01–20 mM) "
Which is exactly what is expected (and obtained) from random replacement of calcium in the CaCO3 structure by strontium. Such substitution would be linear, and the coral is getting much less than normal at low levels of Sr and much more than normal incorporation of Sr at high solution levels, suggesting no control over the effect.
Calcium shows saturation kinetics because it is actively taken up by the coral, and that active uptake saturates at very high concentration.
So for the dummies,
As calcium is used up, some strongtium binds where the calcium was? Falsely registering as strongtium being depleted.
Is there a process we can use to unbind the strongtium SrCO3 and then measure it?
As calcium is used up, some strongtium binds where the calcium was? Falsely registering as strongtium being depleted.
Is there a process we can use to unbind the strongtium SrCO3 and then measure it?
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Calcium, magnesium, and strontium look nearly identical, chemically, with strontium being a bit bigger and magnesium being smaller. Thus, when calcium carbonate is precipitating, some of these two get into the calcium carbonate structure in place of calcium ions. The amount that gets in, in nonbiological precipitation, anyay, is proportional to the relative amounts of these three present.
Kungpaoshizi
Valuable Member
Guys, I was sharing that for Glenn.. :|
If you care to carry on the discussion, here's the original thread.
http://reef2reef.com/threads/strontium.254367/
Fwiw, I still believe it might be more of a tangent of bio-composites and strength of the coral vs "misplacement" of compounds. Though I guess this isn't in either of our areas of expertise..
(Apologies for sparking a debate in the DSR thread Glenn!! hehe)
If you care to carry on the discussion, here's the original thread.
http://reef2reef.com/threads/strontium.254367/
Fwiw, I still believe it might be more of a tangent of bio-composites and strength of the coral vs "misplacement" of compounds. Though I guess this isn't in either of our areas of expertise..
(Apologies for sparking a debate in the DSR thread Glenn!! hehe)
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