two part dosing questions

blurry

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Why is the concentration for Ca mixing different between Recipe 1 and Recipe 2? Its the same chemical mix amd from what I can see there is minimal effect on Ph.thanks!


Recipe 1

2. In First one, Mark With Ca.
-Dissolve 2.5 Cups of calcium chloride dihydrate, or calcium chloride in this Gallon of Distilled water. **See Note at Bottom**
-Shake well, and Set aside.
-This is your Ca Suppliment.


Recipe 2:
2. In First Jug, Mark With Ca.
-Dissolve 1.25 Cups of calcium chloride dihydrate, or calcium chloride in this Gallon of Distilled water. **See Note at Bottom**
-Shake well, and Set aside.
-This is your Ca Suppliment.


Note: **"If you use an anhydrous or monohydrate calcium chloride (such as Dow Mini-Pellets, Kent's Turbo Calcium, Prestone Driveway Heat or Peladow Calcium Chloride), then you should use about 20% (1/5) less solid calcium chloride by volume to make the recipe."**
 

Tank102a

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Good question, although I don't know why the difference I'm pretty sure that 2.5 cups is pretty much the maximum that 1 gal of water can take. After that it starts precipitating.
So I'm assuming that the second recepie is less concentrated
 

beaslbob

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The difference is (as you read) the amount of calcium chloride used. So recipe 1 is more concentrated and therefore you dose less.

The reason for the difference is actually the alk portions. Recipe 2 uses baking soda (sodiaum bicarbonate. Recipe 1 uses sodium carbonate (soda ash). Baking soda can be converted to sodium carbonate by baking. Hence the baked baking soda references.

In both recipes the alk is the limiting factor is how much can be dissolved. Sodium carbonate dissolves much easier then baking soda therefore the mixtures can be more concentrated.

With either, dosing then waiting for alk to drop before the next dose works fine. You just use less of recipe 1 or wait longer between doses.


hope that helps.

my .02
 

RBursek

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Beaslbob,
yes there are 2 different recipes for the Alk portion and yes they are reffered as the second part,(part 2) and you are right on the reasons why, the original post was about part 1 which is the Ca part.
The only difference I can see on the 2 different recipes for part 1 is 1 is half the Ca concentration then the other one, by using only 1/2 the amout of Ca to make it.
 

beaslbob

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Beaslbob,
yes there are 2 different recipes for the Alk portion and yes they are reffered as the second part,(part 2) and you are right on the reasons why, the original post was about part 1 which is the Ca part.
The only difference I can see on the 2 different recipes for part 1 is 1 is half the Ca concentration then the other one, by using only 1/2 the amout of Ca to make it.

now I'm confused here. But that doesn't take much :wink:

To use these methods you must use the recipe 1 calcium, alk, and mag. or the recipe 2 caldium, alk, mag. You do not use recipe 1 calcium with recipe 2 alk for instance.

that way you dose equal amounts of the calcium and alk mixtures using either.

also recipe 1 is twice the concentration of recipe 2. To keep things equal in dosing it is driven by the dissolving of the alk portion as you stated. I presume you misspoke on the recipe 1 being 1/2 concentration. recipe 2 is 1/2 concentration.

Both recipe 1 and 2 use the same ingredient, calcium chloride.

I hope I have cleared up the confusion or at least mine.


my .02
 

RBursek

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Yes I meant recipe 1 is twice the concentration of recipe 2. YOU DO NOT need to add the same amount of any part. that is a misconception, and 2LF's promotes that. You add the part in the amount you need to keep the chem params where you want them in there window. Now that RC has increased there main 3 I only need to really add part B, and Dose my Ca in Kalk as my mu which is about 5qts a day which I used to need to still add some part A, but now I do not need to add part A and need to drop the concentration of the Kalk from max to 1/2 of max.
 

beaslbob

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Yes I meant recipe 1 is twice the concentration of recipe 2. YOU DO NOT need to add the same amount of any part. that is a misconception, and 2LF's promotes that. You add the part in the amount you need to keep the chem params where you want them in there window. Now that RC has increased there main 3 I only need to really add part B, and Dose my Ca in Kalk as my mu which is about 5qts a day which I used to need to still add some part A, but now I do not need to add part A and need to drop the concentration of the Kalk from max to 1/2 of max.

thanks for your input and observations.

I would refer you to this quote from the article

diy 2 part article said:
To initiate dosing, first adjust calcium and alkalinity to roughly their correct ranges. This may require a substantial dose of just the calcium part if calcium is low (e.g., below 380 ppm). I would suggest targeting calcium between 380 and 450 ppm, and alkalinity between 2.5 and 4 meq/L (7-11 dKH; 125-200 ppm calcium carbonate equivalents).
This calculator shows how much of what parts to add in order to boost one or both of the parameters by a certain amount:
Reef chemicals calculator
Reef Chemistry Calculator
Then, once things seem roughly correct, select a starting daily dose for routine dosing. Here are some suggested starting doses, but the exact values do not matter much. The suggested doses apply to both recipes.
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Table 1. Suggested starting daily doses of this supplement in different aquaria.[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Tank Description:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Suggested Starting Doses:[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Recipe #1[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Recipe #2[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Fish-only with live rock[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.1 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.2 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]New tank, few corals[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.2 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.4 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Low demand [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.3 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.6 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Mixed tank[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.5 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]1 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Heavy demand (SPS corals)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]1 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]2 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]​

After a few days of dosing, note whether alkalinity is low, high or on target. Only bother to test alkalinity, not calcium, during this period, because it is much more sensitive than calcium to over- or underdosing. Adjust the dose up or down as necessary to increase or decrease the alkalinity.
Once you have determined the proper dose, continue it until there is a substantial reason to adjust it (such as falling alkalinity as the corals increase in size). When adjusting the dose, raise or lower both of the recipe's parts together.
Resist the temptation to keep jiggering calcium and alkalinity independently. They will need occasional corrections, but that should not be the normal course of dosing unless there are substantial outside influences, such as water changes with a salt mix that does not match the tank's parameters or an error in making the mixes.
Check alkalinity fairly frequently to make sure the dosing continues at a suitable rate. Check it maybe once a week to once a month (or less as you get more experienced with the system and the tank). Check calcium once a month to once every few months to make sure it continues on track.
Remember to add an appropriate amount of Part 3 each time you finish adding a gallon of Parts 1 and 2.

Sounds to me like you are jiggering. But you could be you're just doing that first balancing out also.

my .02
 

RBursek

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Bleaslbob,
I do not know where you got that second quote from, it was not mine. Sorry I took that wrong, I do think you can jigger if you do add then test too quickly, without knowing your tank. Thank for quoting that info.
 
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beaslbob

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Bleaslbob,
I do not know where you got that second quote from, it was not mine. Sorry I took that wrong, I do think you can jigger if you do add then test too quickly, without knowing your tank. Thank for quoting that info.

the second quote is the actual article's dosing instructions.
 

beaslbob

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Is part 1 the full strength Ca and #2 is the half strenght Ca?

yes. notice the recommendations for recipe 2 is twice the recipe 1 dose.

Just to be clear both the calcium and alk of recipe 2 are 1/2 strength of recipe 1.
 

LegoZ81

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it just keep them in proportion so you can use the same of each which helps when you are using a dual channel dosing pump.
 

tampasnooker

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I just started using a 2 part from TBAquatics. Presumably the same recipe 1. I've always used B-Ionic. Do you guys find that the Alk from the home made does not dissolve as quickly? Is this due to having a higher concentration of carbonates? Mine turns into little white jelly beans and takes several minutes to dissolve. B-Ionic only did this when concentration was nearing upper levels. I"m seeing this with DKH as low as 6 in one tank and the water doesn't seem to want to accept more carbonate.
 

beaslbob

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I have trouble dissolving baking soda in recipe 2. Have to stir very aggressively. But now white jelly beans just white powder at bottom. After a couple of days stirring each day it finally dissolves.

Dr. Holmes-farley recommended heating the water to aide in dissolving.

my .02
 

RBursek

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BleaslBob,
Glad to see your read Randy's stuff, gives me faith we are going in the same direction, yes he sez to use warm water, I also use warm water, I fill my gallon jug about 3/4 full, I add abou 1/3 of my part B mix, and shake very well, I let it settle for a min or 2, add the other third, ect, ect. Then add the rest of the water. I always shake it well before using. When I was buying 2LF 2 part it took a real long time to get it dissolved when I added the water.
 
OP
OP
B

blurry

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With Rec. #1 the Ca concentration is twice that of Rec #2. The dosing calculators recommend dosing 1/2 of Rec #1 compared to #2 (makes sense - twice the strength).

They use the same chemical, at different concentrations, then adjust the dosing based on concentration.

So why have two concentrations?

I don't believe "Jiggering" is related to this - imaging a perfectly constant KH of 10 - now to add Ca - you can (1) put in a "unit" of Rec #1, or 2X "unit" of Rec#2

I'm sure there is a reason - just can't figure it out!
 

tampasnooker

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My Alk solution is fully dissolved with the 2 part - in the jug,clear. when I add it to the tank, it forms little globs. Since switching to randy's recipe from b-ionic, Ca is great, but KH is plummeting. Cannot get alk solution to dissolve in the tank. Mg consistent @1300.

Switch to arm and hammer? anything else?
 

spongebob

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Did you first bake the baking soda in the oven for 2 hours?
You have to bake it to bake off the CO2 before mixing. This will have positive effect on PH and Alk (DKH). Unbaked soda releases CO2 and may even decrease PH and KH. Sorry if i missed you mentioning this in the post ... sleepy :)
 

RBursek

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Did you first bake the baking soda in the oven for 2 hours?
You have to bake it to bake off the CO2 before mixing. This will have positive effect on PH and Alk (DKH). Unbaked soda releases CO2 and may even decrease PH and KH. Sorry if i missed you mentioning this in the post ... sleepy :)
Un baked baking soda will not have a lowering affect on Alk,just PH.
 
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