Ultimate Phosphate and energy control? Potassium Nitrate or Calcium Nitrate Dosing with NoPOx Carbon

[kennedpa]

Let the reef science begin,

We have been reefing for a few years now with a 10 month break due to moving. Always for the longest time we have had phosphate control issues with difficulty in obtaining a nitrate level despite heavy feedings. Some have dosed nitrates in various forms along with a carbon source (vodka, vinegar, etc) to reduce phosphate by forcing consumption by reef bacteria. We again have the same issue with our current frag setup while we await our 120 gallon setups installation after a remodel.

We are going to try two things.

One, we are going to continue to dose via dosing pumps basic elements to maintain healthy Ca, Mg, and KH for growth, with the addition of Potassium Nitrate for continuous positive levels of nitrate (not worried about the potassium addition due to the small amounts needed for 1-2 ppm). while also continuously adding NoPOx for promoting bacterial processing of nitrate and phosphate.

Previous experience with NoPOx was great but did not resolve phosphate levels alone. Nitrate was exhausted prior to normalization of nitratehosphate ratios.

Two, after the proof of concept (I know of one other documented case http://www.reefersparadise.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=uaihnaj0fi36pvolnfkl45h443&topic=3576.0) I think it would be interesting to continue to up the amount of nitrate addition (and maybe add phosphate as well if necessary to maintain low background levels) as well as the carbon additive necessary to continue to foster the same ppm level as previous while still continuing to add more. It would seem reasonable to hypothesize that promoting a robust bacterial presence up to a point that may not be possible in a traditional reef system may provide benefit to corals we have not yet observed. By up to a point I mean without generating a ridiculous bacterial film on everything. Flow and skimming would have to be robust.

I plan on regularly updating this thread with water tests and daily step by step processes taken to create a full picture of the events. I expect that nitrate addition with NoPOx with resolve current phosphate issues and will help promote reef health, but the second questions will be the most interesting (and as usual with reefing the most impatient part).

I'd love to hear what you all think about the idea, and if you know of or have any experience with this.

 

[kennedpa]

Apparently : + p in nitrate : phosphate ratio =

Who would've thought.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, adding nitrate to get bacterial consumption of a carbon source to reduce phosphate is a fine plan and a fair number of people are doing it.

The bacteria driven by organic carbon dosing can, IMO, be a good food for a number of filter feeders. Sponges grew better in my tank, for example, when organic carbon dosing than I saw before dosing.

In my tank I added very large amounts of organic (up to more than 1 mL per gallon per day, although the water became hazy and other issues made me back down) to get a lot of bacteria and did not need to add either nitrate or phosphate to get a lot of growth. So whether these additions and monitoring are needed or not depends on the tank.

I would caution that if you really intend to try to balance and dose both nitrate and phosphate as well as the organics, this wouldn't, IMO, be called simple because it would take a lot of testing and dose adjustments..

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Imo, calcium nitrate is better than potassium nitrate. Elevated calcium isn't too big a deal, elevated potassium can lead to much bigger problems including wiping out the tank..

 

[hawkinsrgk]

To me potassium nitrate is not as big of a deal as what it's being made out to be. The amount of potassium in potassium nitrate is 38%. So if you overdosed potassium from potassium nitrate you would have bigger problem with nitrates

 

[Waterjockey]

Let the reef science begin,

We have been reefing for a few years now with a 10 month break due to moving. Always for the longest time we have had phosphate control issues with difficulty in obtaining a nitrate level despite heavy feedings. Some have dosed nitrates in various forms along with a carbon source (vodka, vinegar, etc) to reduce phosphate by forcing consumption by reef bacteria. We again have the same issue with our current frag setup while we await our 120 gallon setups installation after a remodel.

We are going to try two things.

One, we are going to continue to dose via dosing pumps basic elements to maintain healthy Ca, Mg, and KH for growth, with the addition of Potassium Nitrate for continuous positive levels of nitrate (not worried about the potassium addition due to the small amounts needed for 1-2 ppm). while also continuously adding NoPOx for promoting bacterial processing of nitrate and phosphate.

Previous experience with NoPOx was great but did not resolve phosphate levels alone. Nitrate was exhausted prior to normalization of nitratehosphate ratios.

Two, after the proof of concept (I know of one other documented case http://www.reefersparadise.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=uaihnaj0fi36pvolnfkl45h443&topic=3576.0) I think it would be interesting to continue to up the amount of nitrate addition (and maybe add phosphate as well if necessary to maintain low background levels) as well as the carbon additive necessary to continue to foster the same ppm level as previous while still continuing to add more. It would seem reasonable to hypothesize that promoting a robust bacterial presence up to a point that may not be possible in a traditional reef system may provide benefit to corals we have not yet observed. By up to a point I mean without generating a ridiculous bacterial film on everything. Flow and skimming would have to be robust.

I plan on regularly updating this thread with water tests and daily step by step processes taken to create a full picture of the events. I expect that nitrate addition with NoPOx with resolve current phosphate issues and will help promote reef health, but the second questions will be the most interesting (and as usual with reefing the most impatient part).

I'd love to hear what you all think about the idea, and if you know of or have any experience with this.

I dosed carbon and KNO3 for a while in a bid to reduce phophate. It worked fine for achieving a zero reading on the Hanna meter. I did not get bacterial blooms or any apparent issues......other than all my soft corals began to look like crap and my Lobo's began to stn. I abandoned the process and my Lobo's are slowly recovering.

It works, it's not difficult to do, but in my personal circumstance it was not a sustainable method.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I dosed carbon and KNO3 for a while in a bid to reduce phophate. It worked fine for achieving a zero reading on the Hanna meter. I did not get bacterial blooms or any apparent issues......other than all my soft corals began to look like crap and my Lobo's began to stn. I abandoned the process and my Lobo's are slowly recovering.

It works, it's not difficult to do, but in my personal circumstance it was not a sustainable method.

I suspect that was from nutrients being too low for the soft corals, not the potassium.

 

[Waterjockey]

I suspect that was from nutrients being too low for the soft corals, not the potassium.

I never suspected potassium as the issue. I assumed, as you said, likely too low nutrients and they were starving. Finaly got my hands on some chaeto and lots of light in my sump....that's my next experiment in nutrient management

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, I misinterpreted the sustainable method comment. Dosing less would potentially have avoided trouble.

 

[Waterjockey]

OK, I misinterpreted the sustainable method comment. Dosing less would potentially have avoided trouble.

Yes, you are likely right. I was dosing heavy to drop very high levels in a previously neglected tank. Had I followed a reefers mantra of going slow and steady I might not have experienced it. I am not adverse to dosing kno3 again.

 

[James Kanouff]

The process for me started at 10 dkh, 0 nitrate, 15-35 PPB of p04. =slow growth good color. I reduced po4 to 0 and began dosing stump remover "potassium nitrate"
I'm still dosing stump remover with no ill effects, going on now maybe 4 months. I'm able to keep 5 ppm of no3 that way. I don't test for potassium but supposedly that elevates a bit as well with the stump remover method. I see no ill effects. Definite growth benefits. Start slow.

The reduction of the phosphate probably had more to do with it than anything to be realistic. I'm using a Hanna ULR tester once a week to confirm p04 levels and salafert to test nitrate.
I use saturated Kalk in auto and P04X as a phosphate remover. auto water changes 10%/month 4 yr old mixed reef system. light fish load heavy coral load. the 20 gallon frag tank is attached to the same filter system. LIFE REEF gear. ** no CA reactor, dosed 20 MLs of ALK n CA / day in 100 gallons of system water.

 

[DAPG8GT]

Any updates on this? I'm going to attempt the first half of the equation with only the addition of N03 but curious if you went through with this.

Kinda off topic Question but since some highly accredited posters =) are subscribed to this thread figured this is a good place to have this question answered..

Should I use potassium nitrate or calcium nitrate? I've been looking into it this morning and it seems to be a mixed bag of responses on what's best or if there is really any difference.. Only variable for me that points to calcium nitrate is that I already have a level of potassium in the 420's.. So would calcium nitrate be a better option in my particular case?

I already have some Kn03 from green leaf but wondering if I should start my dosing program after I get some calcium nitrate.. Thoughts?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I doubt it is enough to be an issue, but if you dose it for long, I'd use calcium or sodium nitrate so as to not risk boosting potassium too much.

 

[BlueCursor]

My experience is that higher bacteria counts means higher potassium consumption. I dose NO3 using the potassium form over the calcium form simply because it helps put back some of the K my bacteria consume. To date I still use potassium nitrate to dose NO3, and have never had K go over 410 ppm.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My experience is that higher bacteria counts means higher potassium consumption. I dose NO3 using the potassium form over the calcium form simply because it helps put back some of the K my bacteria consume. To date I still use potassium nitrate to dose NO3, and have never had K go over 410 ppm.

Maybe it depends on what you feed, because I drove bacteria growth with huge organic carbon dosing (more than 1 mL of vinegar per total system gallon) and never saw potassium depletion even with no dosing.

 

[BlueCursor]

Maybe it depends on what you feed, because I drove bacteria growth with huge organic carbon dosing (more than 1 mL of vinegar per total system gallon) and never saw potassium depletion even with no dosing.

I was using biopellets and seeing a large K depletion. Now that you mention it, when I was dosing vinegar I was seeing stable K levels.

 

[bubblemytip]

I've just started experimenting with home-made zeostart. I made it by dissolving 38g of Calcium nitrate in 500ml vinegar. Dosing x2 1ml doses via dosing pump into my 100L reef per day currently that is running zeovit. Was getting sick of measuring 0.1ml twice a day with a syringe.

Will update in a few weeks.

 

[kennedpa]

This went on hold for several reasons. Currently in the midst of a system build, and will be creating two systems next to this to run an experiment on this. Sorry for the thread creation without follow through.

Interesting points on the potassium. Perhaps discussions regarding the effects of various bacterial populations and their abundance might be a interesting and useful conversation going forward with this!

 

[kennedpa]

I will say that using potassium nitrate works well and is a simple method for nutrient control. Still using this method. I just never pushed forward to driving up the load with KNO3 + carbon dosing + phosphate if needed to see the effect of driving the microbial system further.

It reasons to me that much like the bacteria in our body's various regions contribute to the system as a whole that the fauna of the reef do the same, and that possibly pushing them further than typical nutrient control might produce excess organics and inorganics that corals need for growth and color outside of supplementation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It reasons to me that much like the bacteria in our body's various regions contribute to the system as a whole that the fauna of the reef do the same, and that possibly pushing them further than typical nutrient control might produce excess organics and inorganics that corals need for growth and color outside of supplementation.

I'm not sure what you mean by inorganics. What inorganics do bacteria produce that corals need?