Why are there so many sick fish?????

[James Johnson]

Time and again I go into reef stores and constantly hear other reefers haggle over prices, the favorite line I hear is "is that the best you can do?". To me it seems that most hobbyist are working on a budget and try to get everything they can as cheap as possible, which is not always the best way to go. A quality product will pay for itself in the amount of time you get out of it, I like to buy something once instead of replacing it once a year.

Working in retail myself I understand all to well profit margins and loss and how it affects the way a business is run. To me it doesn't really make sense to expect a fully quarantined fish, that has been in a tank for a while at a discounted price. Once a fish has been in a store for a while they have spent the time and effort to feed it, to clean the tank, to fix/maintain the chemistry and not to mention paying someone to bag the fish and give you advice on it. So not only have they paid the original price for it from the wholesale but now they have housed it for several weeks in a special high maintenance quarantine but now they should give you a discount?

I hope that everyone realizes the LFS need to turn a profit in order to stay in business. It will be a sad day when I can no longer go into a fish store and pick out my fish in person. Yes I know some online stores offer WYSIWYG fish but its not the same as seeing the little guy eat and then duck into a cave in front of you. I always like to ask the LFS if they provide any kind of guarantee, if they do they are far more likely to give you good advice and sell you a healthy fish.

I prefer shops that have healthy fish even if it costs a little bit more. Besides buying from a retailer who takes poor care of their livestock is just encouraging them to do more of the same, and we wonder why PETA hates us. These stores should have gone out of business long ago, but here they are year after year because the consumers(us) focus on price and not quality.

 

[1stNoel]

Seems like thats all we read on here what is happening?
I started my tank almost 2 years ago and loved it ..then
I go and buy one little pretty fish and bring him home and didnt have a QT tank well just in a bout 3 days I lost every fish I had ...
people buy sick fish I have and I have lost them also and thats sad ..but can the people selling the fish Qt them before shipping to our homes?
These fish are not cheap alot of them ..
I have to save up for mine lol so I really hate buying sick fish ...
Just seems like something could be do e for these fish so
You get them healthy

I was in the hobby about 12 years ago, unknowingly committed every cardinal sin of fishkeeping, and never lost a fish. That is until a hurricane wiped out the power for a week!

Got back in the hobby one year ago, and constantly read up on it to make sure I'm doing all the right things...but I've lost more fish this time than I ever did previously. And I'm keeping some very tough to keep fish...Powder Blue Tang, Copperband Butterfly, and took in a Blue Hippo Tang with HLLE and nursed it back to full health.

So I'm not sure why it is, but I make the same observation.

 

[Jahalu]

Absolutely agree. However I think those of us on this forum are still in the minority. I love the mandarins and when I was getting back into the hobby I was reading about captive bred one and thought that was a great milestone especially for a fish that has a poor track record in newer tanks when taken from the wild. When I was set back up come to find out pretty much no one offers the captive bred guys as the wild one are so much cheaper they can't make any money from it and so they are pretty much impossible to find at least from what I have been able to determine by looking. I think this just underscores why Walmart tends to win even if in the long run it's not good for the local community as if they fold there are no local guys left. Most want it cheap even if that means lower quality of goods, again look at Walmart most of what they sell is garbage that has to be replaced in a year or less. As more and more of the captive bred yellow tangs come to market it will be interesting to see if consumers will stomach the additional cost or if these too will go the way of the captive bred mandarins.

Yeah, you're right, at least at this point in time. But, that doesn't mean we should stop the research- both by hobbyist as well as researcher. The day will come when exporting will no longer be legal. I feel it's not 'if' but 'when'- it's just not sustainable, and with reef habitat seriously in trouble, it will only expedite the inevitable. Then, captive breeding for many species will explode. They'll be a rush to fill the niche and it will be economically viable. Let's just hope the research is in place before this happens.
I am willing to pay a premium for captive bred fish, however, not if that fish is housed in a large disease-ridden 'wild' system at retail time, as HF mentioned is very common, and as I have observed at my lfs.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who comes down hard on myself when I lose a fish in my care from disease or accident, not just because I was attached, or because it was expensive, but because it was taken from the wild. I still buy wild caught fish and give them the best chance I can, but I look forward to the day when my lfs has a decent captive bred selection. And who knows, maybe someday, we, the hobbyists, will be sought to replenish wild populations using what we've learned.

 

[Jahalu]

I was in the hobby about 12 years ago, unknowingly committed every cardinal sin of fishkeeping, and never lost a fish. That is until a hurricane wiped out the power for a week!

Got back in the hobby one year ago, and constantly read up on it to make sure I'm doing all the right things...but I've lost more fish this time than I ever did previously. And I'm keeping some very tough to keep fish...Powder Blue Tang, Copperband Butterfly, and took in a Blue Hippo Tang with HLLE and nursed it back to full health.

So I'm not sure why it is, but I make the same observation.

Who knows, maybe it's a sign from the environment that there are ecological stresses in some of the collection hotspots. If animals are already stressed ecologically, maybe the collection/transport process just pushes them over the edge easier than it did years ago, when our oceans were healthier. Just speculation, of course, but still interesting. Sometimes I wish there was more transparency with consumers as to where exactly specimens originate from.

 

[fbodykiller]

I am fortunate enough to live in Louisiana within a few hours of @seth&angelle store and can say his fish are super healthy. 3 of 5 fish came from his store and I was lucky enough to get Sally the sailfin from @Humblefish on my way back from a vacation trip. It makes me sick when I go into other stores and see all of the sick fish being sold in these days. Seth have you considered selling online? I think what would hurt you with that beijg so far from airport. I hope more LFS become more responsible!

Dave

 

[Mrwilcox281]

There was a store I used in Co that would hold the fish for a minimum of 3 days before selling. LFS don't really care for the most part, they really don't lose money on dead fish once they are sold unless they have some sort of warranty in place. The mark up from the wholesaler to retail can be up to 10X depending on the fish and the wholesaler will refund dead fish to the store within so many days. Like others have said, it's best to have a QT tank or be extremely picky with LFSs.

 

[Humblefish]

Yay for Sally the Sailfin! She was saved from velvet and then got a good home.

 

[lewis.maryann08]

I have a QT tank now ...

 

[Valkyrie]

Remember we are a small community (here on R2R) and we probably don't represent a fraction of the consumers out there, and most consumers or lfs don't care like we do.

This. Just this.

And it goes both ways, the members that are here that own or work at a lfs are, typically, the conscientious and respectable.

I've been on a lot of different forums for a lot of different subjects and it's always the same; the members of those forums are minuscule fraction of the people who are a part of that particular community. Whether it be ferrets, dogs, fish or homesteading. The people who join, read and/or contribute are the cream of the crop (typically). The mass majority...well....the majority will do what is fastest, easiest, most profitable and cheapest.

The best people, IMO, are the freethinkers that maintain integrity. They don't have to agree with everything that gets posted and often don't. But, they do nothing to intentionally cause harm and take their responsibility as caretakers seriously.

Peace.

 

[srad750c]

Always QT you fish, I bought a beautiful coral beauty last year, had not seen one with colors this good in a very long time. He was at LFS for 2 weeks, excellent condition and eating like crazy, I said what the heck. Did not QT him so, about 5 days into it he got a bacterial infection on his pectoral fin, no problem, got luck caught him and treated in QT tank for 5 days, then SHF, all my existing fish got sick, weird stuff. When dust settled I lost:

Snowflake clown pair $150.00 - 18 months old
Flame hawk $75.00 - 7 yrs old
Flame angel $75.00 3 yrs old
Damsels x 4@ $3.99 - 8 yrs old
yellow tang $29.99 - 5 yrs old

On the flip side I still have the coral beauty, 2 damsels and a very scarred yellow tang. Just bought a pair of black perculas 5 months ago. I will not put anything else in tank, including corals. SO, USE QT TANKS, trust me. Some of my fish were cheapo's but I had them a long time, long enough that the would eat from my fingers.

 

[lewis.maryann08]

Please consider a visit to my reef aquarium store. Fish Doctor is a California, Bay Area service company for over 12 years and I now offer quarantine of all animals on my website or my store at retail.
I have several separate holding systems for quarantine and disease treatment as well as for healthy fish.
I hold all animals a minimum of 30 days before selling and do not mix batches of fish so no new fish orders are placed until my quarantine system is empty of previous batch of fish that was in quarantine.
I really appreciate everyone taking a look at what I have to offer and considering the importance of healthy and quarantined animals available to you at any retailer. As mentioned in this thread it is a RARE thing to properly quarantine animals at the retail level and I am trying to make a difference by showing everyone that it can be done!
Best of luck to all and happy reefing friends.

Whats the link to your store

 

[Johnny5ive]

I had 2 clowns in a nano that just cycled. I was on vacation for a month and had no one to take care of them so I had the LFS babysit them for a little over a month for $50. When I gao them back they were fine and eating well. A few weeks later, I was starting / planning to build the population up slowly. I wanted to put some sand sifters in but slowly since the bioload was small. Brought a Sand Star from the LFS. What they failed to tell me is that they had a batch of boutique Clownfish in the same tank that had Brook and all but 2 died (I'm sure the other 2 were hosts and displayed for sale). So within a day or two of adding the Star. My clownfish succumbed to Brook. Very devastating disease! I took the first one to the LFS to diagnose the disease. That's how I found out about their outbreak (at least they were honest after the fact). No offer to make things right. Thankfully, my tank was pretty bare. Now I have the decision to leave my tank fallow for 3 months with no guarantees, or, adding chlorine to the tank, rocks and subtrate, to sterilize it and then recycle.
My LFS also tells me that he had aptasia in his coral display but added a Butterfly and all the aptasia is gone. I really doubt it is completely eradicated and now I will never buy anything from them again except seawater and RO/DI. I just can't trust them.

 

[Mrwilcox281]

Bingo.

This. Just this.

And it goes both ways, the members that are here that own or work at a lfs are, typically, the conscientious and respectable.

I've been on a lot of different forums for a lot of different subjects and it's always the same; the members of those forums are minuscule fraction of the people who are a part of that particular community. Whether it be ferrets, dogs, fish or homesteading. The people who join, read and/or contribute are the cream of the crop (typically). The mass majority...well....the majority will do what is fastest, easiest, most profitable and cheapest.

The best people, IMO, are the freethinkers that maintain integrity. They don't have to agree with everything that gets posted and often don't. But, they do nothing to intentionally cause harm and take their responsibility as caretakers seriously.

Peace.

 

[Renee180]

In my area, I do not know of any stores that offer a money back guarantee on salt water fish.
It seems to be a very fast moving revolving door, some fish barely make it out of the bag and they are back out the door, ha probably better to just get them before they leave the bag at that rate?
The fish almost always have some type of spots on their fins. So I know those tanks are never free of disease.
If my store had a tank that strictly had only qt fish in it and they guaranteed them to be disease free, money back guarantee, lets say 7 days, I would pay more for a fish from that tank (seperate system tank of course!) than I would for a fish in the next tank over that is connected to all those other tanks. AND then I would still qt them at home for 2-3 months!
So my point is, I think we ALL would pay more for a healthy fish that came with a guarantee of its health! Simple concept. No risk to the consumer, and for thier efforts the store owner gets to charge more for the fish.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Part of the problem is that most wholesalers keep copper at therapeutic levels, so when they ship out the fish appear fine. Many LFS run copper too. So a hobbyist will buy a seemingly healthy fish. Now, while copper can kill free swimming parasites, there can still be some on the fish.

Copper, however, inhibits the immunity of the fish. The stressors of shipping also inhibit the fish's immune response. So if it doesn't get qt'd, it is now extremely susceptible to any existing pathogens.

Another aspect is the increased communication and improved ability to accurately diagnose disease. A few years ago the assumption of most new posters on disease is that they were under the impression that it was always ich when their fish was sick, even though in many cases it was velvet. I also believe that as collective knowledge increased more hobbyists accurately identified losses to disease rather than chalking it up to normal or acceptable losses.

 

[Humblefish]

Part of the problem is that most wholesalers keep copper at therapeutic levels, so when they ship out the fish appear fine. Many LFS run copper too. So a hobbyist will buy a seemingly healthy fish. Now, while copper can kill free swimming parasites, there can still be some on the fish.

Or sometimes they don't test their copper level on a regular basis, so it drops below therapeutic levels, and some of the theronts manage to survive & find a fish host. But because so few make their way onto the fish it appears healthy and disease-free. Once removed from copper, the life cycle resumes unabated and a lowered immune system gets overwhelmed by an onslaught of free swimmers now in full force.

Even worse, if a particular strain of ich/velvet were exposed long enough to a chemical (such as copper) without being eradicated; that strain in theory could develop a resistance to said chemical.

 

[lewis.maryann08]

What level should the copper be? I know it need to be brought up slow ..I bought a hipo tang that has ick and he is in hospital tank

 

[melypr1985]

What level should the copper be? I know it need to be brought up slow ..I bought a hipo tang that has ick and he is in hospital tank

It depends on the type of copper your using. Ionic copper like Cuppramine is between .3-.5 Chelated copper like Coppersafe is 1.5-2

 

[lewis.maryann08]

Im using coppersafe

 

[lewis.maryann08]

Im at .5