Worms? For feeding

Lionfish Lair

Renee
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Your experience is that blackworms have helped with the longevity of your tank, the stretch is mentioning bacteria when it's more than likely the nutritional profile and the high value of protein and lipids they have.
 

Paul B

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I don't think blackworms have anything to do with the longevity of the tank itself. But I think it helps my fish stay immune and live out their lives to their presumed lifespan as my fish only seem to die from old age or jumping out. They seem to be totally immune from everything and have never had any disease (except a case of pop eye on a Moorish Idol) in maybe 35 years. It may be the lipids in the worms, I am not sure as I am not a researcher. Whatever it is, the worms seem to work. I did not come up with this last week. I have been doing and studying the effect for many years, much longer than most studies on immunity. But like I always say, I am "guessing" and never say it is absolutely the proven fact. I can point to a tank full of spawning fish that are very old, have never been quarantined and have never been sick. I believe something is the cause of this and worms are the only thing I can think of. But if you have a different theory, I would love to hear it. :rolleyes:
https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/connor_meghan_a_200805_ms.pdf
 

Lionfish Lair

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Paul, I'm not saying you have to have scientific research to prove everything that happens in your tank, but these hypothesis of yours should be based on something when they are so specific.
 

Paul B

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As I said, my hypothesis has to do with my first experience with the worms. I stated it many times. When the hobby started I kept the first fish available and lost many to parasites as we all did. That continued until I used blackworms every day. After 7 weeks those blue devils spawned and from that time on, I did not have problems with parasites or anything else so I have fed them every day and that immunity continues. As you said, it is a hypothesis, not a statement that is supposed to be absolutely proven. It is my "opinion" and nothing more. I feel in my opinion that if I can keep fish "totally" immune from everything for
or 40 years, something I am doing must be working because I can not point to any other tank with that immunity for so long after I add constantly water, plants, crustaceans, fish, worms, mud, snails etc from the sea and buy livestock from almost all the LFSs on Long Island, Brooklyn and Manhattan. I have no other way to explain it but I would love to hear any other Hypothesis. I don't think I do anything different from anyone else and virtually "all" my paired fish are spawning and I always post those pictures. That is what I base my hypothesis on. That and my 60 years of fish keeping. I have no other explanation but I am not saying this to be absolutely true. It is just my theory. I have to base it on something. If I were only keeping fish for 10 or 15 years, my theories would not mean much, but that is not the case.
I am trying to babysit my 2 Grand Kids and type at the same time
 

Lionfish Lair

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Maybe look to what is known about the worms to explain their benefits for inclusion in the diet, instead of mentioning things that do not exist. These blackworms, Lumbriculus variegatus, have been analyzed extensively in toxicity and bioaccumulation studies. There is no reason to believe they have a beneficial bacteria that you speak of, so maybe it's the nutritional profile and the fact they are offered live (so the fats are intact and there is no rancidity or products of perioxidation that can happen with fats in the freezer).
 

Paul B

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It could be. But it also could be the bacteria as I have provided many links to the benefit of live bacteria. The nutritional benefit is probably a benefit to their health, but I "think" the live bacteria is a benefit to their immunity because without an influx of bacteria and parasites, fish (and us) have no way to keep our immunity. I also feed clams and I am sure as in worms, their nutritional impact is important as well as their bacteria.
To me, and to many researchers gut bacteria is the key to immunity. Like I said, I could be wrong and it could just be the lipids.
I don't point to any specific bacteria in worms, I think any bacteria in any food would be beneficial for immunity.
You can have healthy fish that are not immune but you can't have immune fish unless they are healthy.
Do you know of any tank that has been immune for decades that does not feed food with live bacteria in it?
Have you heard of any research that states fish can keep immunity for decades without offering live bacteria and parasites?
Do you know of any studies at all that have gone on for more than a few years?
Do you know of any researchers who have immune fish of their own that do not feed live bacteria?
These questions elude to my theory but do not prove it. But they are compelling.
 

Paul B

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A few quick things I found discussing gut bacteria and pro biotics in fish. None of these are specific to blackworms but it would be specific to feeding a fish a diet that lacks live bacteria. (In between baby sitting)

Quote:
Probiotics and immunity: A fish perspective
  • Laboratory of Fish Pathology, Department of Veterinary Medicine, College of Bioresource Sciences, Nihon University, Japan
Received 6 November 2009, Revised 12 February 2010, Accepted 19 February 2010, Available online 26 February 2010

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsi.2010.02.017
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Abstract
Probiotics are usually live microorganisms which when administered in adequate amounts confer a health benefits on host. Nowadays, probiotics are also becoming an integral part of the aquaculture practices to obtain high production. The common probiotics that are used for aquaculture practices include Lactobacillus, Lactococcus, Leuconostoc, Enterococcus, Carnobacterium, Shewanella, Bacillus, Aeromonas, Vibrio, Enterobacter, Pseudomonas, Clostridium, and Saccharomyces species. The involvement of probiotics in nutrition, disease resistance and other beneficial activities in fish has proven beyond any doubt. Among the numerous health benefits attributed to probiotics, modulation of immune system is one of the most commonly purported benefits of the probiotics and their potency to stimulate the systemic and local immunity under in vitro and in vivo conditions is noteworthy. Different probiotics either monospecies or multispecies supplementation can eventually elevate phagocytic, lysozyme, complement, respiratory burst activity as well as expression of various cytokines in fish. Similarly, probiotics can stimulate the gut immune system of fish with marked increase in the number of Ig+ cells and acidophilic granulocytes. Furthermore, mono-bacterial association studies (with non-probiotic bacterial strains) in gnotobiotic fish also indicate the up-regulation of various immune related genes. Though the exact mode of action of probiotics is yet to be established in any animal including fish, probiotics often exert host specific and strain specific differences in their activities. Various factors like source, type, dose and duration of supplementation of probiotics can significantly affect the immunomodulatory activity of probiotics. The review is therefore, aiming to highlight the immunomodulatory activity of probiotics and also to evaluate the factors that regulate for the optimum induction of immune responses in fish.
End Quote


Quote:
Home » Fish Care Center
How a Fish's Immune System Works
petmd-seal.jpg



The kidney and spleen make antibodies specifically built to fight each particular antigen (invading disease). This process can take up to two weeks. The antibodies attach themselves to their antigen and fight it in one of three ways:
  1. Detoxify it – so that white blood cells can ingest and destroy it
  2. Attract a “compliment” – another blood component that helps destroy the antigen
  3. Deactivate reproduction – to stop the antigen proliferating
As in all immune systems, a familiar antigen is dealt with quicker than a new one. The system reacts quicker, antibodies already exist and they multiply extremely quickly upon contact with their antigen. This is the same principle used in vaccination, where a detoxified antigen is introduced to allow a fish time to build appropriate antibodies without danger. If the full-blown disease is encountered later, the immune system can gear-up much faster and survival chances are increased.

It is important to note that environmental pollution also hampers the immune system and reduces a fish’s response to pathogens.

Immunology of Fish
Thelma C Fletcher, University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen, UK
Christopher J Secombes, University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen, UK

Published online: November 2015

DOI: 10.1002/9780470015902.a0000520.pub3

Quote:
Abstract
Innate immunity provides some form of defence against pathogens in all multicellular organisms but with cartilaginous and bony fish, although the lowest group of jawed vertebrates, the addition of a classic adaptive immune response becomes apparent. This provides the refinements of specificity for antigen recognition and memory. The T and B lymphocytes are the effector leucocytes, acquiring their antigen‐specific receptors (immunoglobulin for B cells and T‐cell receptor for T cells) in the anterior kidney (bone marrow being absent) and thymus. The B cells are responsible for the production of antibodies that function as different immunoglobulin classes, whereas subsets of T lymphocytes are capable of killing target cells or helping with B‐ and other T‐cell functions. Knowledge of these mechanisms is important for the use and design of vaccines, now so essential for the aquaculture industry, whereas studies of fish immunology contribute to the understanding of the evolution of adaptive immunity.
 

Lionfish Lair

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@Lowstorm it seems blackworms can "absorb" and carry most everything to your fish. If there was a vitamin or supplement or even a medication, they can carry it to your fish once they themselves are exposed. I don't think I would use it with medication, as it would be hard to determine the dose you'd be administering. It's why they are used in bioaccumulation studies... they are like sponges.

In one study they preserved some weight and nutritional components from feeding flake food. Maybe using marine would be extra beneficial, where this one set of people used freshwater flake.

I'm trying to upload a blurb, but I don't know if my iPad will do it.
 

Lionfish Lair

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Burkhard, L., Hubin-Barrows, D., Billa, N., Highland, T., Hockett, J., Mount, D., Norberg-King, T., Hawthorne, S., Miller, D., & Grabanski, C. (2015). Sediment Bioaccumulation Test with Lumbriculus variegatus: Effects of Feeding. Archives of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, 68(4), 696-706.


IMG_0292.PNG
 

Paul B

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I'm trying to upload a blurb, but I don't know if my iPad will do it.

I would not have a clue as to how to do that. :D
I often look at blackworms under my microscope and they seem to be like little hypodermic needles continousely pumping water through their bodies so I assume that would be correct that you could possibly administer drugs to fish using them, but you are correct, how would you determine how much of the medication get into the tiny worm.
I keep my worms at room temperature and feed them yeast. I think this is a good diet because they seem to be a nice color and they do reproduce, just not as fast as I would like. They also can be kept seemingly forever like this because I never see any die. The trick is to keep them in shallow, well oxygenated water. The waste water from my RO system replenishes my worm water constantly and it is all automatic.
The yeast immediately clouds the water but it clears quickly so I "assume" the worms are removing the yeast from the water. (I also feed years to my corals as it is an excellent source of the B vitamins but this is only an experiment and I don't advise it)
I also sometimes soak my worms in fish oil for an hour prior to feeding them to my fish. Also just an experiemnt
 

Neptune 555

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Paul - your tank results are amazing and based on reading your results and my complete failures w ttm I have changed my saltwater practices. I now feed black worms / clams / mussels/ hatch bbs / pellets and still of nori. My fish look great! I use your bbs feeder too! My blue hippo tang was getting hlle he was 2 years old and the new diet did reverse it! I still QT all fish BUT now my QT is actually a refugium and so far no treatment has been given.

Here is my question Paul... why don't you try some experiments and share your results. I know you don't have to prove anything to anyone but this would be interesting... why not get three fish with ich from a lfs and put one in your tank / place one in QT and feed with black worms / and one in QT and feed frozen food . Report results?

I have read previously that you had dropped fish right into your tank w ich and they healed and survived?? I still live in fear of ich... and think my tank is ich free b/c I employed ttm and praziquantel protocol for 2 years - lost many fish but only the survivors went in. Now I have reduced my QT protocol but I am also not adding ich prone fish...

Is it the black worms or the mud from your tank that provides the immunity? Or the clams you feed? Or the pods you add to your tank from the ocean? We need to isolate what is it that provides the magic and help other aquarists achieve this success.

Thanks for sharing your success I continue to read and learn !!

Neptune
 

Paul B

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Neptune, I could do that with a couple of tanks but I don't even have a couple of tanks or the time to do that. I don't own a quarantine tank and my hospital tank is put away so far, I would have to sell my house and ask the new owner to find it for me. :D

Is it the black worms or the mud from your tank that provides the immunity? Or the clams you feed? Or the pods you add to your tank from the ocean? We need to isolate what is it that provides the magic and help other aquarists achieve this success

It is neither of those things. It is the bacteria and parasites in my tank that provide the immunity. It is those things you mentioned that allow the fish to keep up their immunity.
Fish, us or duck billed platypuses will not keep their immunity very long if they are not subjected to those very same pathogens that we are trying to get them immune from. I am not sure why this is such a hard concept for so many people. We get flu shots so we don't get the flu (usually) I got measles shots to protect me from that and just before I went to Viet Nam I got shots to protect me from every disease known to man. I was only in the Jungle for a year but if I were to stay there much longer, I would have to get booster shots for those diseases. I had no access to live worms, unless I wanted to dig them up. I ate plenty of dirt and mud with my C Rations and never got sick.
Recently I dropped 3 shrimpfish into my tank, all with ich. One croaked the next day covered in parasites and I left him in there for the crabs. The other two lost their ich and thrived. Those parasites are still hopefully in my tank boosting the immunity of the rest of the fish. This year I added maybe 4 fish and a bunch of crabs. I don't know if they had parasites and I don't care. It is a non issue for me.

Shrimpfish

 

Eggpaul

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No, there is no reference to blackworms so you won't find that.
I don't keep the worms in the fridge. I keep them alive, healthy and well fed in a worm keeper that I designed so they keep their compliment of live bacteria.
I have been keeping and feeding live worms since the 60s. In those days we we would breed freshwater fish the first instruction was to use live foods. I would collect daphnia and worms and buy blackworms.
I have been reading for quite a few years about new research on live bacteria in the gut and how it stimulates the immune system to keep their immunity up.
As I am sure you know from the immunity thread, my fish have been immune for decades and I am "guessing" the live bacteria in the worms and clams I feed is the key.
When I started keeping blus devils in the 70s I got them to spawn by feeding live blackworms for 7 weeks.

I have a 2nd fridge in the garage , and the wife won't mind if I keep them there. How long will they survive in the fridge?
 

Paul B

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About a week or more if you rinse them in fresh water every day
 

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