Zoa's Shrinking Away, Help...

[treedog5]

Just a pic for reference, here are the zoas after lights out for about 30hrs.

 

[treedog5]

Still haven't gotten my hands on that t5 yet..

 

[treedog5]

And here lights back on for about 2hrs..

 

[A. grandis]

LEDs are back for 2 hours?
Why?
Do your best to get those T5s, I would say.
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

I bet if you post pictures of the polyps after a day they will show signs of critical stress.
Turning off the lights will give them a relief.
The 2 last pictures posted show normal behavior of the polyps after a night period.
They are damaged and week IMO.
Take a look at those green ones. Those are probably symptoms of light damage, more than anything else.
You should follow my directions to see if the problem is the light. I don't understand why you turned the LEDs on again.

Grandis.

 

[treedog5]

I only turned the light back on to see what reaction the zoas would have. I will shut the lights back off, I'm hoping to get the t5 real soon.

 

[A. grandis]

I only turned the light back on to see what reaction the zoas would have. I will shut the lights back off, I'm hoping to get the t5 real soon.

Oh, now I understand...
Alright, get that T5 fixture!!

Grandis.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

It's not the lights man. Unless they're too bright. Grab a lux meter for $14 and set them correctly or a par meter
Low nutrients plus low dissolved organics as mentioned so many times before are the likely cause.
For the animal alk uptake and nutrient uptake are driven by light. And maintained by flow. Upsetting the balance on two of those obviously can cause major probs. An animal with a larger mouth and digestive system needs more solid foods too

Rox carbon is probably the most aggressive you can get and also the toughest to keep out of the tank btw. And aggressive use like a reactor can strip organics. It also because of its structure can get into the tank as well quite easily.

Any sort of extreme change being suggested should be looked at with skepticism.
Joshporksandwitch is probably THE zoa guy here. Look back on his advice.

Your sps are a very different animal btw. Zoas like pars of 100 to 250 generally probably take more depending on higher nutrients. Many Sps Esp acro will thrive in super low UNLS systems and take HUGE amounts of Par as long as those minimums of no and Po are kept.
Those levels will kill a zoa and a Xenia would die almost immediately.

It seems to me you have the answers already and the tools too. Just adjust them to suit the animals in your care.
A truly truly mixed reef is really the hardest thing out there. Because few of those animals live in the the same type of environment in the wild.

Vitamin c btw is a carbon source and also carbon dosing. Every organism on the planet depends on carbon exchange. Bacteria coral and us. More primitive organisms can access it more directly.

 

[A. grandis]

It's not the lights man. Unless they're too bright. Grab a lux meter for $14 and set them correctly or a par meter
Low nutrients plus low dissolved organics as mentioned so many times before are the likely cause.
For the animal alk uptake and nutrient uptake are driven by light. And maintained by flow. Upsetting the balance on two of those obviously can cause major probs. An animal with a larger mouth and digestive system needs more solid foods too

Rox carbon is probably the most aggressive you can get and also the toughest to keep out of the tank btw. And aggressive use like a reactor can strip organics. It also because of its structure can get into the tank as well quite easily.

Any sort of extreme change being suggested should be looked at with skepticism.
Joshporksandwitch is probably THE zoa guy here. Look back on his advice.

Your sps are a very different animal btw. Zoas like pars of 100 to 250 generally probably take more depending on higher nutrients. Many Sps Esp acro will thrive in super low UNLS systems and take HUGE amounts of Par as long as those minimums of no and Po are kept.
Those levels will kill a zoa and a Xenia would die almost immediately.

It seems to me you have the answers already and the tools too. Just adjust them to suit the animals in your care.
A truly truly mixed reef is really the hardest thing out there. Because few of those animals live in the the same type of environment in the wild.

Vitamin c btw is a carbon source and also carbon dosing. Every organism on the planet depends on carbon exchange. Bacteria coral and us. More primitive organisms can access it more directly.

Look at the behavior of the zoas when he turned off the LEDs...
Let him try the T5s, man!
I've never used ANY vitamin C in my life... Never used vodka too!
Let him try...

Grandis.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Look at the behavior of the zoas when he turned off the LEDs...

I did.
changing to a 4tube t5 from a high output led is kinda like turning them down.

I only offer advice on how it actually works. everyone is free to chose.

vodka and true carbon dosing is unnecessary. the nutrients are low enough.
vitamin c just is and is likely in everything that says aminos or marine snow. its also a natural preservative.

 

[A. grandis]

I did.
changing to a 4tube t5 from a high output led is kinda like turning them down.

I only offer advice on how it actually works. everyone is free to chose.

vodka and true carbon dosing is unnecessary. the nutrients are low enough.
vitamin c just is and is likely in everything that says aminos or marine snow. its also a natural preservative.

Hummm... if I thought would be "like turning them down" I would tell him to do that way.
Not really! It's changing to a whole new different way to offer light to those needy polyps in my point of view!
I really believe that would actually heal and solve the problem forever, if light and only light is the issue.
We should not go over that discussion again here, I would prefer. I'm over that.
Maybe after the T5s are working we could just say that the T5s were the preference for that system?!? Or his preferred light source for his system? Because everyone just tells me that I prefer T5s! LOL!
Please let him just try first! We'll see.

Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

T5s are the way to go!!
That's what the LED companies look to when they want to achieve their top quality LED fixtures!

Aloha,
Grandis.

 

[Lenny_S]

I don't see how this helps the OP. @treedog5, I really don't think you need to replace your lights again. There have been plenty of good suggestions in this thread around adjusting the lights you have, adjusting the nutrients, and feeding. You have various other corals that are doing good, so it's something more particular to the zoas.
Since they haven't died and you've been seeking an answer for more than a month, you have the time (apparently) to keep working on the answer. Figuring out the solution for yourself through trying some of the adjustments rather than dramatic changes will be more valuable to you in the end.
And it is entirely possible that it is a combination of things and not just a single silver bullet.

 

[A. grandis]

It won't hurt, but solve the problem!
Try the silver bullet!

Grandis.

 

[Lenny_S]

It won't hurt, but solve the problem!
Try the silver bullet!

Grandis.

@A. grandis I can't find a build thread or any pictures of your tank/system?

 

[treedog5]

Guys, I really appreciate all the feedback that everyone is giving but please lets not starting bashing on each other. Like I said earlier I'm willing to try any suggestions you guys have but I'm only going to do 1 thing at a time and slowly to see if any changes occur. Grandis has offered an idea and even though I don't think it's the lights I'm willing to give it a shot, it can't hurt anything. If the T5's don't show any improvement then I will start dosing vitiman C, I already followed joshporksandwhichs advice but I saw no improvements so I'm trying other things now.

 

[Lenny_S]

@treedog5 , it isn't about bashing, and not my intent. It is about giving advice for the benefit of the OP and others that might read this thread, vs. pushing ones own agenda. @A. grandis seems to be on some kind of anti LED crusade lately and while I agree LED is one of the most challenging lighting options to be successful with, once you are successful the results are undeniable. I myself struggled for a long time with "dialing in" my LEDs, and I did finally get the results I was looking for. And now I am adding T5 to see if that further enhances the health and growth of my corals. So I am not "anti T5", but rather I see many lighting options as viable... all of my trial and error, the good and the bad, are all chronicled in my build thread. That is just my experience, some may find it helpful, some may not, but at least it is all out there for people to see.
All I want for you, or anyone who has questions about this hobby, is to get unbiased input based on personal experience or research of both sides of the "argument". And I also think it is only fair that one puts their own chronology out there as a way to vet their background and experience. I see far too many crusades on the forum without a foundation to support it. And I think it would be a better forum if people would just take a I tried both and this is what each option did vs. you need to do this types of responses.

 

[treedog5]

Well said Lenny and I agree with your points. I will let my trials and errors be well documented in this thread for what it's worth.. And thanks again to all who share their input.

 

[zeeGGee]

Guys, I really appreciate all the feedback that everyone is giving but please lets not starting bashing on each other. Like I said earlier I'm willing to try any suggestions you guys have but I'm only going to do 1 thing at a time and slowly to see if any changes occur. Grandis has offered an idea and even though I don't think it's the lights I'm willing to give it a shot, it can't hurt anything. If the T5's don't show any improvement then I will start dosing vitiman C, I already followed joshporksandwhichs advice but I saw no improvements so I'm trying other things now.

Just an update. My zoas are fully open
now and bigger. 1st photo taken on 2nd day of Vitamin C dosing:


Current photos:

 

[A. grandis]

@treedog5 , it isn't about bashing, and not my intent.

It is... actually you guys are trying to make me look bad at all times.
You guys are so defensive and thinking that I'm against you because of the LEDs. Unbelievable!
Go read my thread and check it out. Read all!! I'm not against LED people. I suggest T5s instead because I know (you can say that I believe) that the HO tubes are way better than any LED in the market today. Period!
BUT... if you like the LEDs, if you want them, if you choose to save that electricity, paying a huge amount for some cheap plastic light. Go ahead. I'm getting tired of this!

It is about giving advice for the benefit of the OP and others that might read this thread, vs. pushing ones own agenda.

That's not fair! I'm not pushing my own agenda! I came to this thread late with my advices. I was waiting for the LED friends to come along and help since October 28th, but they didn't. Instead "pushing my agenda" I also enjoyed talking about vitamin C and tried to help. My first advice was on nov 7th on page 5! I was tagging along since October 28th!

@A. grandis seems to be on some kind of anti LED crusade lately...

Yep, I sure want to let you know what I think it's the best. Not a crusade! LOL!! That's too much!

... and while I agree LED is one of the most challenging lighting options to be successful with, once you are successful the results are undeniable.

Why didn't you help him then?

I myself struggled for a long time with "dialing in" my LEDs, and I did finally get the results I was looking for.

And you want him to struggle like you did? For how long? That's not good!! How many LED fixtures do you want him to get to achieve some acceptable results? How long does he have to keep trying dialing the LEDs?

And now I am adding T5 to see if that further enhances the health and growth of my corals.

I'm glad you're doing. Maybe my thread and advices served for some people to wake up!
Go ahead and get that space over your tank and replace those LEDs for T5s. You will have a much better deal per square inch than the LEDs! That's for sure! You will love it. This is a friendly advice.

So I am not "anti T5", but rather I see many lighting options as viable...

I don't see any reason to call LEDs viable. I do see T5s as the best primary light sources for any reef tank to have a system without any trouble forever, if you change the bulbs and choose them right for that particular system.

all of my trial and error, the good and the bad, are all chronicled in my build thread.

I'm so sorry for that! You shouldn't have to go through all that trouble for nothing! By getting an ATI T5 fixture you would just enjoy your tank and tell people how happy you would feel.

That is just my experience, some may find it helpful, some may not, but at least it is all out there for people to see.

I'm putting all here for people to see my opinions and others' opinions. That's what I'm doing... LED, T5, MHs:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/l...oas-discussion-what-are-your-thoughts.268851/

All I want for you, or anyone who has questions about this hobby, is to get unbiased input based on personal experience or research of both sides of the "argument".

Me too: let him get some positive experiences with a T5 fixture!!!! Both sides? Go to the thread above!

And I also think it is only fair that one puts their own chronology out there as a way to vet their background and experience. I see far too many crusades on the forum without a foundation to support it.

Yep, just like this huge LED crusade with lots of hours of experiences killing corals and zoanthids trying to get that magical dial, putting their own chronology to "help" people to try?!?!

And I think it would be a better forum if people would just take a I tried both and this is what each option did vs. you need to do this types of responses.

My response is that I've tried both and got sick of hose LEDs' games and marketing...
I guess I'm ruining this forum then.
Too bad!
Grandis.