⚠️Real effects of trace element dosage, nutrient on Sps coloration

[Anxur]

Good morning lads. I wanted to know, from those who have experience with trace elements or macroelements, what they are, or what is the element that most of all, by dosing it, had visible, certain and replicable effects on the color of your sps..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You might find these useful to read:

Randy's Elements to Dose

In a previous article I discussed my thoughts on trace elements https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randys-thoughts-on-trace-elements.951/ This article expands on that discussion by providing specific guidance for all elements one might dose. First...

www.reef2reef.com

Randy's thoughts on trace elements

Randy's thoughts on trace elements in reef aquaria.

www.reef2reef.com

from the second one:

"11. Do not believe the hype that some commercial products claim about their product boosting specific colors or that specific elements are tied to boosting such colors. Such claims are, in my opinion derived by marketing people and are not based in reef keeping reality. Corals certainly will grow faster and may or may not be more colorful if getting all the trace elements they need, compared to being limited by one or more trace elements, but don’t look to trace elements to take a healthy coral and suddenly make the color pop."

 

[Anxur]

You might find these useful to read:

Randy's Elements to Dose

In a previous article I discussed my thoughts on trace elements https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randys-thoughts-on-trace-elements.951/ This article expands on that discussion by providing specific guidance for all elements one might dose. First...

www.reef2reef.com

Randy's thoughts on trace elements

Randy's thoughts on trace elements in reef aquaria.

www.reef2reef.com

from the second one:

"11. Do not believe the hype that some commercial products claim about their product boosting specific colors or that specific elements are tied to boosting such colors. Such claims are, in my opinion derived by marketing people and are not based in reef keeping reality. Corals certainly will grow faster and may or may not be more colorful if getting all the trace elements they need, compared to being limited by one or more trace elements, but don’t look to trace elements to take a healthy coral and suddenly make the color pop."

For example iron improve the green color?
Boron the red? Iodine e purple ecc?

Or it's just fantasy?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For example iron improve the green color?
Boron the red? Iodine e purple ecc?

Or it's just fantasy?

Yes, that is what I am calling fantasy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If there is anything behind those claims, I expect it is an incorrect thought process like...

1. Chlorophyll contains a magnesium ion.

2. Chlorophyll can be green.

QED, magnesium promotes green colors.

 

[rtparty]

All fantasy with zero scientific data to back any of it up.

Not saying some aren’t needed but don’t expect colors to magically improve because you dosed a trace element with no known biological role.

 

[Anxur]

All fantasy with zero scientific data to back any of it up.

Not saying some aren’t needed but don’t expect colors to magically improve because you dosed a trace element with no known biological role.

In my opinion, paleness or little problems and loss of color or color shades occur if these elements are not present in the correct way from sea water values..

If potassium drops to 350, fluorine drops to 0.7 boron drops to 2.5 etc.. We can also not talk about color, but, most likely at a chemical biological level they will have a task...

Maybe "they are the means to"...

 

[Big E]

In my opinion, paleness or little problems and loss of color or color shades occur if these elements are not present in the correct way from sea water values..

If potassium drops to 350, fluorine drops to 0.7 boron drops to 2.5 etc.. We can also not talk about color, but, most likely at a chemical biological level they will have a task...

Maybe "they are the means to"...

I know we have talked about elements but this comes off as something Claude has said with no proof or data to back it up. No pictures and data combined with dates and documentation.

 

[Anxur]

I know we have talked about elements but this comes off as something Claude has said with no proof or data to back it up. No pictures and data combined with dates and documentation.

Ed, if you think about that you said me..

You put potassium in your water change..

It's that I try to say

 

[Big E]

I only add K to my fresh mix make up water because Instant Ocean tests out at 340-350, so I bump that up to 400. Low potassium has been known to cause issues for decades.

" If potassium drops to 350, fluorine drops to 0.7 boron drops to 2.5 etc.. We can also not talk about color, but, most likely at a chemical biological level they will have a task"

This what I have questions about.........................there many other relationships he claims without a sliver of proof or documentation.

 

[Anxur]

I only add K to my fresh mix make up water because Instant Ocean tests out at 340-350, so I bump that up to 400. Low potassium has been known to cause issues for decades.

" If potassium drops to 350, fluorine drops to 0.7 boron drops to 2.5 etc.. We can also not talk about color, but, most likely at a chemical biological level they will have a task"

This what I have questions about.........................there many other relationships he claims without a sliver of proof or documentation.

Just because there is a lack of studies and scientific evidence doesn't mean we simply haven't figured out what they do yet. In my opinion they all serve in more or less important roles... Some will serve in a fundamental way, others in a very marginal way.

 

[Doctorgori]

I’ve chewed on this for a long time, as a breeder of fish nowhere else is the measuring stick of success based on “color” …. Usually the arrival point is completing a organisms biological life cycle: growth, reproduction, rearing, et….
While it seems obvious, there is no direct correlation between a certain showing of color and success/health…

Not sure but probably should start a thread survey on this as Ive never seen any proof …
A worthy study might be showing a correlation between being gravid vs showing a certain color or intensity

 

[rtparty]

Not sure who would call Potassium a trace element when it’s just as abundant as calcium. Anybody calling Calcium a trace element?

 

[Big E]

Just because there is a lack of studies and scientific evidence doesn't mean we simply haven't figured out what they do yet. In my opinion they all serve in more or less important roles... Some will serve in a fundamental way, others in a very marginal way.

Not sure you are understanding what I'm saying. I want pictures of before & after from a vendor in growth and color of acropora........... It NEVER happens, just baseless claims. Documentation of dates when the trace elements were dosed and the rate of depletion and relationship to change in colors.

There is no data made public on trace relationships even though they claim to have thousands of data points.

I'm not asking for scientific evidence just proof of their claims whoever the vendor may be.

 

[Troylee]

Not sure you are understanding what I'm saying. I want pictures of before & after from a vendor in growth and color of acropora........... It NEVER happens, just baseless claims. Documentation of dates when the trace elements were dosed and the rate of depletion and relationship to change in colors.

There is no data made public on trace relationships even though they claim to have thousands of data points.

I'm not asking for scientific evidence just proof of their claims whoever the vendor may be.

But, but, but……the majority of the reef moonshiners tell me I’m crazy when I say this! I’ve been told this so much I’m beginning to think I’m crazy Lighting is the biggest factor in coloration and I will always argue it! I got trampled for mentioning this on a sps page on face book. Haha!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Some elements, such as iron, have clearly established needs in organisms, and if low enough, corals will suffer. The uncertainty here is whether and when it is low enough to warrant dosing.

Others, like strontium, seem to be largely a reef hobby hypothesis that lacks any generally convincing evidence. The question here, IMO, is whether there is any benefit.

 

[Doctorgori]

I think the lack of solid evidence coupled with our strong desire for coloration will drive the market towards snake oils and unsubstantiated product claims...
And as we see; here they come

 

[Jposch]

I only add K to my fresh mix make up water because Instant Ocean tests out at 340-350, so I bump that up to 400. Low potassium has been known to cause issues for decades.

" If potassium drops to 350,

I have had montipora turn quite gray when K falls to <350ppm. Goniopora will close up tight at just below 400pm K. correcting the deficiency with KCL promptly relieves those issues. has been more important for the 2 species I culture than iron, manganese, zinc, or Iodine. many of the anecdotal benefits of dosing KI2 are likely from the small bit of Potassium added, which is possibly just barely enough to maintain potassium at a suitable level.

I find 400ppm to be the minimum for my systems, and 450-500 to be beneficial.

fluorine drops to 0.7

I definitely notice a small intensity increase in blue coloration in Acropora as Fauna Marin claims. No harm in maintaining NSW, assuming the ICP results are accurate.

boron drops to 2.5

boron is very useful for maintaining a tighter pH range. it will NOT increase pH, but it will tighten the daily swing.
say, you normally run 7.8-8.4, you can get it to sit a bit steadier around 8.0-8.2 if you juice it up a bit above NSW to 6ppm. above that, there is no benefit. I found reduced growth rates, and my hypothesis is that high levels of boron are used as an algaecide in pools. possibly inhibiting zooxanthellae. Another hypothesis is that the boron buffer the pH too greatly and inhibits pH upregulation, and thus calcification is reduced. I had gotten up to over 16ppm over time, and saw a gradual reduction in visual growth, and accompanying reduction in calcium and alkalinity demand.
My preference is Boron to be around 4.5-6ppm. this is slightly contribute to higher total alkalinity. like 0.4dkh or so. Inconsequential to most.
a last note on elevated Boron...It is a 2 way buffer. Its harder for pH to drop, but its also harder to raise pH.
meaning, opening a window for a few hours will not raise pH as significantly as before, and you'll need that air exchange to occur longer to see the same pH increase as before.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t see how dosing KI can ever make a potassium difference that’s important without massively overdosing iodine.

Let’s take the extreme case of adding 0.06 ppm of iodine every day.

That adds 0.018 ppm K per day, or 0.6 ppm per month. That seems insignificant to me.