Apex Controlled Battery Backup Solution?

[spawn79]

I'm hoping someone can help me with this. I am trying to find a remote triggered DC transfer switch for my setup. I plan on having a DIY battery backup solution for crucial life support on my system but I want it to drive DC voltage only to avoid any inverter losses and failure point. My problem is the remote trigger. I'm coming up largely empty on transfer switches that aren't either fully manual or fully automatic. I need a switch that can take signal/voltage from my apex and switch the power from the main DC source to the battery source when AC power is lost and I am not home to change everything over.
The reason for this is I don't have apex controllable pumps so when I do a feed or maintenance mode on my apex it cuts the AC power completely to some or all of my pumps depending on the trigger through the EB832 and DC24 ports. If I had an auto transfer switch it would immediately sense this loss of power and kick on the batteries and just keep the pumps running. Instead I want the apex to monitor the power and only when the mains power is lost trigger the transfer switch and change to battery power.

If the above is confusing I can try to clarify or write up a simple diagram.
Thanks!

 

[Johnd651]

I think I understand. I've used industrial versions of dc ats transfer switches before, and would use something like an ac/dc wall wart on the line input.

Dc Auto Transfer Switch,Power Supply Controller, DC Power/Battery Switch DC 12V 24V 36V 48V 10A Power Supply Battery Controller Emergency Automatic Switch Module https://a.co/d/1KnxM3h

 

[spawn79]

Yeah, that's it except it switches automatically upon sensing power loss. I'm trying to find one that won't switch automatically but instead only switch the power when triggered by remote voltage/signal.

So this device will sit between the AC/DC converter on the EB832 outlet and the pump controller which is DC. When triggered it will switch from the normal DC supply to the battery supply.

 

[Johnd651]

It almost sounds like you might be able to do what your trying with 2 relays.

 

[spawn79]

I was wondering that too and had seen a couple of other posts exploring that idea but no resolution. I'm good at basic electrical stuff but when it comes to wiring up relays, resistors, diodes and how they all relate to each other I need a bit of hand holding unfortunately.

 

[theatrus]

Yeah, that's it except it switches automatically upon sensing power loss. I'm trying to find one that won't switch automatically but instead only switch the power when triggered by remote voltage/signal.

So this device will sit between the AC/DC converter on the EB832 outlet and the pump controller which is DC. When triggered it will switch from the normal DC supply to the battery supply.

So, a relay (per adapter) which is Form C - one normally open and one normally closed contact.

DC power to the pump is on the middle terminal. Power from the DC adapter from the normally closed contact. Power from the battery system on the normally open contact.

The relay is powered by a DC adapter plugged into your EB8(32). When you turn that outlet on, the relay switches over. Use one relay per DC adapter, and just connect all the coils of the relay together to your relay-DC adapter.

You can even use the 24V accessory ports on the 1Link module (with a 24VDC relay).

 

[Gizmoreef]

I don’t understand why you need it to be DC or Apex triggered?

Just get an APC UPS, works perfect. No hassle. Power goes into UPS, UPS goes to aquarium.
When power is lost to UPS, it keeps going on the internal UPS battery.

Is this not something that would work or you really want ‘control’?
Keep in mind, you would still get an Apex notification if the power goes out: your modem.
“Apex not connected to internet” (because modem lost power)

UPS has multiple outlets or use a power brick for the pumps. That is what I would do probably.

 

[theatrus]

I don’t understand why you need it to be DC or Apex triggered?

Just get an APC UPS, works perfect. No hassle. Power goes into UPS, UPS goes to aquarium.
When power is lost to UPS, it keeps going on the internal UPS battery.

Is this not something that would work or you really want ‘control’?
Keep in mind, you would still get an Apex notification if the power goes out: your modem.
“Apex not connected to internet” (because modem lost power)

The other option is use an AC-coil relay to sense the AC line, which just closes an Apex switch input.

 

[spawn79]

So, a relay (per adapter) which is Form C - one normally open and one normally closed contact.

DC power to the pump is on the middle terminal. Power from the DC adapter from the normally closed contact. Power from the battery system on the normally open contact.

The relay is powered by a DC adapter plugged into your EB8(32). When you turn that outlet on, the relay switches over. Use one relay per DC adapter, and just connect all the coils of the relay together to your relay-DC adapter.

You can even use the 24V accessory ports on the 1Link module (with a 24VDC relay).

That actually sounds pretty simple now that you explain it that way. One problem though would be that during a power outage only the apex head unit would have power and not the eb832. I do have a couple of FMM's with 24v ports however. So in this situation maybe this would work? I would have to have a supply from the battery to the FMM so it would be powered all the time. Then when power went out it would still be able to control that 24v port and trigger the relay.

 

[theatrus]

That actually sounds pretty simple now that you explain it that way. One problem though would be that during a power outage only the apex head unit would have power and not the eb832. I do have a couple of FMM's with 24v ports however. So in this situation maybe this would work? I would have to have a supply from the battery to the FMM so it would be powered all the time. Then when power went out it would still be able to control that 24v port and trigger the relay.

Yeah, the FMM has a switched port (you need to feed it power and it switches it on the ACC port) as a simple DC switch. This can also run a relay. If you're directly powering the APEX on 12V, the FMM port can _probably_ switch 12V for a 12V coil relay just fine, even though its for 24V.

 

[Z Burn's Reefing]

Not sure if this is helpful as I am not as smart as you all, but this is how I have my setup running - I plug my eb832 into a UPS. I make sure to power the apex head unit separately with its own power adapter. This is required so the apex can detect power loss and react accordingly. Once power is cut, the apex brain unit detects the loss, but the eb immediately gets power still through the UPS. I then have code that turns off all the eb outlets except for the outlet that runs my return pump and one outlet that powers the heater. Basically I just want to keep these two outlets going so my tank can keep running for several hours. No need to run lights and too much else. Just thought I’d share in case it helps. It’s been solid for me.

 

[spawn79]

I don’t understand why you need it to be DC or Apex triggered?

Just get an APC UPS, works perfect. No hassle. Power goes into UPS, UPS goes to aquarium.
When power is lost to UPS, it keeps going on the internal UPS battery.

Is this not something that would work or you really want ‘control’?
Keep in mind, you would still get an Apex notification if the power goes out: your modem.
“Apex not connected to internet” (because modem lost power)

UPS has multiple outlets or use a power brick for the pumps. That is what I would do probably.

A couple of reasons not to do this. The biggest reason is runtime. Unless you spend a small fortune on a UPS the runtime is pretty short. The batteries are relatively small and the inverters are quite inefficient so there are a lot of current losses.
This will be a lifepo battery setup at least 100AH. I'm not looking for an hour or two of backup. I want at least 24 hours if not 48 hours of backup power. (I'm in tornado and winter storm alley) Keeping the whole backup system on DC power will eliminate most of the losses.
UPS systems also use lead acid batteries which need regular replacement to keep the runtime. lifepo batteries last a LONG time. Kind of expensive up front but no replacements down the road. I could buy an all in one type setup like a bluetti but once again there is a premium $$ to that. Plus I like DIY so this is fun for me.

 

[spawn79]

Oh, also when you plug a UPS into your eb832 there is a lot of conversion losses. Battery is DC then inverter to AC to the eb832. Then the power is converted yet again back to DC through the 24v ports or the power bricks plugged into the outlets. If you go straight DC to DC you avoid quite a bit of inverter losses as well as loss to heat through the power bricks driving everything.

 

[bubbgee]

Not sure if this is helpful as I am not as smart as you all, but this is how I have my setup running - I plug my eb832 into a UPC. I make sure to power the apex head unit separately with its own power adapter. This is required so the apex can detect power loss and react accordingly. Once power is cut, the apex brain unit detects the loss, but the eb immediately gets power still through the UPC. I then have code that turns off all the eb outlets except for the outlet that runs my return pump and one outlet that powers the heater. Basically I just want to keep these two outlets going so my tank can keep running for several hours. No need to run lights and too much else. Just thought I’d share in case it helps. It’s been solid for me for many years.

Hello, sounds like a great solution.
But how are you powering the Apex brain? I didnt know they sold a separate power adapter..

 

[spawn79]

Yeah, the FMM has a switched port (you need to feed it power and it switches it on the ACC port) as a simple DC switch. This can also run a relay. If you're directly powering the APEX on 12V, the FMM port can _probably_ switch 12V for a 12V coil relay just fine, even though its for 24V.

That might be the solution I'm after as well as one of the cheapest since I have everything I need but the relay and those are pretty cheap anyway. Awesome. Now I just need to make a decision on which battery to get considering there's 1000000 of them out there now.

 

[Z Burn's Reefing]

Hello, sounds like a great solution.
But how are you powering the Apex brain? I didnt know they sold a separate power adapter..

This right here:

12v Apex Power Supply | Premium Aquatics

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[spawn79]

Hello, sounds like a great solution.
But how are you powering the Apex brain? I didnt know they sold a separate power adapter..

The brain has a 12v input. In my case I would hook that up to DC backup. When the brain senses 120v power loss at the eb832 then it would trigger programming to shut off/turn on whatever ports needed.

 

[Z Burn's Reefing]

Just a couple lines of code does the trick to keep an outlet or two on:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Power Apex Off 000 Then ON

 

[theatrus]

A couple of reasons not to do this. The biggest reason is runtime. Unless you spend a small fortune on a UPS the runtime is pretty short. The batteries are relatively small and the inverters are quite inefficient so there are a lot of current losses.
This will be a lifepo battery setup at least 100AH. I'm not looking for an hour or two of backup. I want at least 24 hours if not 48 hours of backup power. (I'm in tornado and winter storm alley) Keeping the whole backup system on DC power will eliminate most of the losses.
UPS systems also use lead acid batteries which need regular replacement to keep the runtime. lifepo batteries last a LONG time. Kind of expensive up front but no replacements down the road. I could buy an all in one type setup like a bluetti but once again there is a premium $$ to that. Plus I like DIY so this is fun for me.

This reminds me I should start using my bank of 48V LiFePO4 batteries - I have several kWh just on a shelf. Was going to use them less for backup (don't lose power here) but for solar generation time shifting - the tank runs into the evening and it would be nice to be purely or mostly solar powered

 

[spawn79]

Just a couple lines of code does the trick to keep an outlet or two on:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Power Apex Off 000 Then ON

Yup, except in my case it would be AC power to eb832 off then the 24v acc port on since I would have an FMM supplied by the backup system