Are brute trash cans really chemically safe?

[CEReefer]

Hi everyone, I read in many forums (this included) that people use BRUTE Trash Cans for their mixing station. So I went ahead and bought 2 55gal ones, and made a mixing station.

Months later.. Wondering around on the internet, I stepped on some information about the use of different plastics and ultra-pure (RO-DI) water. Apparently the polyethylene the BRUTE trash cans are made of, as well as PVC are not recommended for use with RO-DI water, due to its corrosive nature and substances (potentially carcinogenic) leaching into the water from the containers/pipes.

They instead suggest natural polypropylene or PVDF for this application

What do you guys think? are we polluting our tanks just because we want to be cheap and not buy a proper water storage tank? Or it doesn't really matter?

 

[chaostactics]

Probably

 

[CEReefer]

Probably

Expand.. do you they are probably safe? Or we are probably messing up our tanks?

 

[TheDragonsReef]

Brute makes more than one style, youre supposed to use the food and water potable ones. Thats all i know though lol ive used them for years and never got any bad results on icp tests.

 

[muzikalmatt]

Reefers have been using Brute trash cans and PVC to store and plumb RODI and saltwater for literally decades. I don't think there are any issues. I've had mine for over three years without issue including having the RODI water from the Brute trash can ICP tested.

 

[Joe462]

The only way to know for sure is to perform an experiment. unless some one already has. collect some of your rodi water straight out of line send it in for a VOC analysis then fill your brute let it sit and leach for a month, collect a sample and send it in for VOC analysis.

could be expensive though, cause i think you might need a better lab than the saltwater ICP analysis. like a drinking water test at a certified lab.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi everyone, I read in many forums (this included) that people use BRUTE Trash Cans for their mixing station. So I went ahead and bought 2 55gal ones, and made a mixing station.

Months later.. Wondering around on the internet, I stepped on some information about the use of different plastics and ultra-pure (RO-DI) water. Apparently the polyethylene the BRUTE trash cans are made of, as well as PVC are not recommended for use with RO-DI water, due to its corrosive nature and substances (potentially carcinogenic) leaching into the water from the containers/pipes.

They instead suggest natural polypropylene or PVDF for this application

What do you guys think? are we polluting our tanks just because we want to be cheap and not buy a proper water storage tank? Or it doesn't really matter?

Wandering around the internet itself is not advisable. Ghosts, aliens, two headed people, You can find whatever you want. Doesn't make it true.


I do not believe this is accurate at all. There is also no such thing as natural polypropylene or PVDF. Both are wholly synthetic materials that do not exist in nature. If you mean unfilled materials (nothing buy the polymer), that is certainly fine. Better? Maybe not.


The grey brute cans are rated as food safe for human food, and I see no reason to think there is any issue.

The idea that RO/Di is corrosive to plastic is bunk.

FWIW, I am a polymer expert. My opinion is not just that of some random person on the internet.

 

[CEReefer]

Wandering around the internet itself is not advisable. Ghosts, aliens, two headed people, You can find whatever you want. Doesn't make it true.


I do not believe this is accurate at all. There is also no such thing as natural polypropylene or PVDF. Both are wholly synthetic materials that do not exist in nature. If you mean unfilled materials (nothing buy the polymer), that is certainly fine. Better? Maybe not.


The grey brute cans are rated as food safe for human food, and I see no reason to think there is any issue.

The idea that RO/Di is corrosive to plastic is bunk.

FWIW, I am a polymer expert. My opinion is not just that of some random person on the internet.

I mean, technically food grade is different than not leaching into something as corrosive as RODI.

By natural it’s meant not colored.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

By natural it’s meant not colored.

OK, we can explore those hypotheses.

First, pure water (like RO/DI) is NOT "corrosive" to plastics or organics. That is a simple misuse of the term. Organic matter does not dissolve into pure water any better than it does into tap water. That is different , perhaps, than some metals. Don't let the metal terminology move into plastics.

If carcinogenic fillers, such as stabilizers or colorants, were in Brute cans (why would they be? seems crazy, there are plenty of noncarcinogenic and nontoxic materials around for this purpose)), they could not be labeled for food contact, regardless of the type of water that is contacting them.

Doe anything leach from brute cans? Sure. There are likely mold release agents on the plastic surface, and perhaps some UV stabilizers in the plastic, along with bird poop and anything else it acquired while sitting in a Home Depot.

Definitely warrants a warm water wash, preferably with some soap.

But I and many others have used many of these cans (my system used more than a dozen at leak for sumps, RO/DI, refugia, limewater, new salt water etc. for 20 years) without any evidence that the were a problem.


There are many suppliers of colored food and medical grades of polypropylene.

 

[TastyScrants]

Nothing like a bit of “spicy” RO water!

 

[swilliams2207]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I’m currently trying to diagnose a a bit of a tank crash sadly. I have a wide range of SPS that are RTNing as we speak. This all started towards the end of July when I went on vacation for 10 days. I switched my ATO system to a black Rubbermaid trash can (#4 recycle LDPE) to hold a larger volume of water. No losses after vacation but things looked a little “off” upon my return.

I had 2 alk spikes in the last few months (8-11) due to accidental overdosing. Most corrected within 24 hours on its own.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago and the majority of my SPS is breaking down. I sent an ICP test in and seeing “red” levels of Lithium and Tin. Everything else is normal. Could the recent Alk spikes and increased levels of tin cause this? Could the Rubbermaid have leached the tin into my tank? That’s the only change/addition I’ve made in the last several months. No other changes and all other params stable other than the mentioned spikes.

I have not done any digging for rusty metal in my tank as of yet but I highly doubt unless I dropped a washer hanging lights.

 

[Propane]

If it were true I would think someone would have noticed it by now.

 

[Reefahholic]

If I remember correctly, Brutes are NSF certified. As far as I know, they’ve never leached much into my water. I consider them to be safe.

 

[Littlesquishy]

My water does get stinky for some reason. Carbon in a mesh bag fixes this while I mix in salt. Corals and fish are not negatively impacted by the smell.

 

[bushdoc]

I am sure that Brute Cans are known to the State of California to cause cancer,birth defects or other reproductive harm.
And that is why I am soon moving to the other state where those cans are not known to cause any harm to me, my future grandchildren and most importantly inhabitants of my reef tank.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I’m currently trying to diagnose a a bit of a tank crash sadly. I have a wide range of SPS that are RTNing as we speak. This all started towards the end of July when I went on vacation for 10 days. I switched my ATO system to a black Rubbermaid trash can (#4 recycle LDPE) to hold a larger volume of water. No losses after vacation but things looked a little “off” upon my return.

I had 2 alk spikes in the last few months (8-11) due to accidental overdosing. Most corrected within 24 hours on its own.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago and the majority of my SPS is breaking down. I sent an ICP test in and seeing “red” levels of Lithium and Tin. Everything else is normal. Could the recent Alk spikes and increased levels of tin cause this? Could the Rubbermaid have leached the tin into my tank? That’s the only change/addition I’ve made in the last several months. No other changes and all other params stable other than the mentioned spikes.

I have not done any digging for rusty metal in my tank as of yet but I highly doubt unless I dropped a washer hanging lights.

Is it possible a battery got dropped in the tank? Make up contains both of these items as well.

 

[Reefahholic]

Just FYI, Lithium and Tin are commonly elevated. Don’t panic. You don’t see many issues with either of them. If Lithium is over 1000 ug/L it’s time to look for the source. If Tin is above 30-50 ug/L it could indicate that something is starting to break down in the system. Check all your pumps, heaters, frag racks, or any magnets.

Also, if the system is new this is common with new starts. It will naturally settle down into normal range, but you can always do some water changes to help that process.

 

[Slocke]

Is it possible a battery got dropped in the tank? Make up contains both of these items as well.

Completely off topic but as someone who puts out environmental fires both non-literal and literal in my job. Can anyone guess the best way to deal with a lithium battery fire?

a) a saltwater bath
b) all the above

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I’m currently trying to diagnose a a bit of a tank crash sadly. I have a wide range of SPS that are RTNing as we speak. This all started towards the end of July when I went on vacation for 10 days. I switched my ATO system to a black Rubbermaid trash can (#4 recycle LDPE) to hold a larger volume of water. No losses after vacation but things looked a little “off” upon my return.

I had 2 alk spikes in the last few months (8-11) due to accidental overdosing. Most corrected within 24 hours on its own.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago and the majority of my SPS is breaking down. I sent an ICP test in and seeing “red” levels of Lithium and Tin. Everything else is normal. Could the recent Alk spikes and increased levels of tin cause this? Could the Rubbermaid have leached the tin into my tank? That’s the only change/addition I’ve made in the last several months. No other changes and all other params stable other than the mentioned spikes.

I have not done any digging for rusty metal in my tank as of yet but I highly doubt unless I dropped a washer hanging lights.

I've not heard of tin issues from brute cans (I used lots of grey ones), or seen it described as being used in that type of plastic.

What levels are you seeing for lithium and tin? ICP companies often throw up red flags at levels that do not appear to cause issues.

 

[swilliams2207]

I've not heard of tin issues from brute cans (I used lots of grey ones), or seen it described as being used in that type of plastic.

What levels are you seeing for lithium and tin? ICP companies often throw up red flags at levels that do not appear to cause issues.

It’s a Rubbermaid roughneck garbage can just to clarify. Tin was 11 ug/l lithium was around 300 ug/l.

I’ve done some water changes and refreshed GAC. I originally thought the Alk spikes were the culprit but those were several weeks ago. Unless a long delay is possible with stress. Now everything is breaking down in waves. Tank is 1 year old and previously thriving. Last ICP was in May with no elevated levels. RODI reads 0 TDS. All cartridges were replaced in the last 6 months. I don’t mix my own salt and use boxed natural sea water with small monthly water changes so I only use RO for ATO. I realize it could be a number of things but it just seems very odd.