Mini cycle

[alicia24]

Hello,
I bought a 120g used with sand and lots of rocks and tons of nems, and inverts a few days ago. I should have not reused the sand I'm realizing that now. Ammonia is 0.93 (hanna) nitrate 7.9 (hamna). I already had to do a massive water change about 60-70% because I couldnt transport all the water needed to fill the tank. I'm really trying to avoid more water changes for a little bit as that was quite a lot of work. Can I just dose prime and microbacter 7 and hopefully its just a mini cycle and resolves in a few days? I just dont want all the inverts to die. No fish in there right now. Thank you!

 

[brandon429]

There is no mini cycle in reefing your system is fine if it didn’t crash on day one after the move. Post a pic of the tank

If the pic looks normal and it’s been up for more than one day it’s fine.

Ammonia isn’t zero in reef tanks, and your measure is in nh4 not nh3 which reefs use, the reading is fine. Post the tank pic

Ammonia events resolve in under fifteen minutes since the rocks remained cycled. Agreed, moving unrinsed sand is a massive risk but not due to ammonia issues. Organics kicked up in waste clouding is affecting your reading, this isn’t a mini cycle there are none of those it’s a made up event based on old rules that ammonia is always zero in reefing: it’s not.

 

[alicia24]

Ok thanks! I just turned the lights on to take a pic but the nems definetely aren't supper happy but I attribute that to the transport. Also have low ph but working on getting the skimmer back up and running.

 

[brandon429]

Excellent. Not an ammonia issue for sure. Reef on

 

[alicia24]

Excellent. Not an ammonia issue for sure. Reef on

Ok awesome!! Thanks so much!

 

[Garf]

Ok awesome!! Thanks so much!

I expect there is ammonia present but the lethal levels really are pretty high, especially with a reduced pH. I'd just monitor for a few days, considering you've already got the Hanna checker. Any disturbance can cause a reduction in ammonia processing for a little while (about 3 days in my limited experience).

 

[brandon429]

we have seneye results on file from tank transfer jobs already.

those levels have been reported before using that checker in non transfer events. the checker states it has a .05% level of flux in the reading, and it's nh4

higher nh4 readings are part and parcel of every false ammonia alert thread on this board. that's the case here still.

here are tanks that didn't even have a move or any type of insult, panicking over elevated nh4 readings, and these kits show a range of feedback levels all on tanks that are perfectly normal and matured:

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

no calibrated seneyes have shown an ammonia spike for days after any type of reef tank job. if the resulting live rock stack is normal, it reduces load ammonia in 15 mins or less

if it's insufficient, it won't. it's not the aquarium job that matters, its the degree of ending rock stack and hers there above is high quality rock, stacked in the way we do.

seneye nh3 meter shows a 15 min resolution for ammonia loading by the rocks in question, on any tank they're installed and calibrated in, and those are powerful rocks above.

here's a link showing calibrated seneye tanks getting ammonia dumped into them as a test load, and handling it within 15 minutes. reef tank sand doesn't store ammonia and a tank transfer does not expose this much ammonia to already-cycled rocks.

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

can you show a link where you've seen that before this event here in order to state when ammonia control stops or reduces in reefing

 

[Garf]

thats not true. we have seneye results on file from tank transfer jobs already.


can you show a link where you've seen that before this event here>

It's happened to me, although I knew it wasn't dangerous, on a poor man's seneye.

Ok awesome!! Thanks so much!

How toxic is ammonia, really?

In the context of trying to understand why so many people believe Seachem Prime was useful for them in an elevated ammonia situation, against the data in the link below about Prime potentially doing nothing to free ammonia in seawater, the question arises, why...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Garf]

we have seneye results on file from tank transfer jobs already.

those levels have been reported before using that checker in non transfer events. the checker states it has a .05% level of flux in the reading, and it's nh4

higher nh4 readings are part and parcel of every false ammonia alert thread on this board. that's the case here still.

here are tanks that didn't even have a move or any type of insult, panicking over elevated nh4 readings, and these kits show a range of feedback levels all on tanks that are perfectly normal and matured:

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

no calibrated seneyes have shown an ammonia spike for days after any type of reef tank job. if the resulting live rock stack is normal, it reduces load ammonia in 15 mins or less

if it's insufficient, it won't. it's not the aquarium job that matters, its the degree of ending rock stack and hers there above is high quality rock, stacked in the way we do.

seneye nh3 meter shows a 15 min resolution for ammonia loading by the rocks in question, on any tank they're installed and calibrated in, and those are powerful rocks above.

here's a link showing calibrated seneye tanks getting ammonia dumped into them as a test load, and handling it within 15 minutes. reef tank sand doesn't store ammonia and a tank transfer does not expose this much ammonia to already-cycled rocks.

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

can you show a link where you've seen that before this event here in order to state when ammonia control stops or reduces in reefing

That's one heck of an edit Brandon, lol.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Brandon - Nitrifying bacterial counts rise and fall based on the availability of food. Overwhelm any step in the process with too much food and the bacteria in the next step have to multiply to process the food.

In other words the "cycle" is a never ending expansion and contraction of nitrifying bacteria for the live of your aquarium. Anytime that you do something to significantly disrupt or overwhelm the balance there will be unprocessed food waiting for the bacteria to catch up. This means nitrite or ammonia counts may rise. Will those counts be detectable by a test kit or sensor? It depends on how large the imbalance is.

Call this delayed reaction what you want but the common terminology in our hobby is "mini cycle". It gets the point across easily.

What is the purpose for making this simple concept so obfuscated by awkward language, new term coinage and continued references to threads that nobody reads, are not scientific and only serve to obfuscate this simple concept?

Honestly, without reference to "work" or "jobs" or "new cycling science" can you explain why there is a need to make something so straight forward and understood so complicated?

 

[BeanAnimal]

we have seneye results on file from tank transfer jobs already.

Also - If you are going to reference "results" that you collect, you may want people to know that they are not scientific and that a real scientist here pointed at the rather flawed methodology (and therefore conclusions) that you continue to draw from your "data".

Calibrating The Seneye Free Ammonia Sensor

I am currently engaged in a project with @taricha that needed free ammonia measurements. The Seneye device seemed like a good low cost option. What I want to share is the calibration data. The Seneye ammonia sensor uses a gas permeable film that is embedded with a pH indicating dye. When free...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[alicia24]

Now I dont know what to believe I just dont want the inverts do die.

 

[Garf]

Now I dont know what to believe I just dont want the inverts do die.

Just check it again, is it going up or down?

 

[alicia24]

Just check it again, is it going up or down?

Today is the first time I checked. It's bee. 2-3 days since I moved everything. When should I check again?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Now I dont know what to believe I just dont want the inverts do die.

In short, I would not rely on analysis from a photo or advice that refuses to acknowledge that there may be an imbalance in the bacteria that makeup the nitrogen processing cycle.

There is a good chance that reusing the sand has produced a good bit of die-off and things need to balance back out.

If your tests are getting ammonia levels that continue to rise, like it or not a water change is your best option. If they are dropping, then you should be okay. There is just no reason to over complicate this or to not err on the side of caution.

 

[alicia24]

In short, I would not rely on analysis from a photo or advice that refuses to acknowledge that there may be an imbalance in the bacteria that makeup the nitrogen processing cycle.

There is a good chance that reusing the sand has produced a good bit of die-off and things need to balance back out.

If your tests are getting ammonia levels that continue to rise, like it or not a water change is your best option. If they are dropping, then you should be okay. There is just no reason to over complicate this or to not err on the side of caution.

Ok thank you!!

 

[Garf]

Today is the first time I checked. It's bee. 2-3 days since I moved everything. When should I check again?

How many reagents for the Hanna have you got? May as well use them.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You said your pH is low, this can also exacerbate issues.

Also - do test the water that you mix up to make sure that you are not introducing Ammonia. You can help age the water with an airstone (and raise pH).

 

[alicia24]

How many reagents for the Hanna have you got? May as well use them.

I have a good amount! Probably 10 left and can order more

 

[Garf]

I have a good amount! Probably 10 left and can order more

I doubt you will need more to be honest. Like I said, immediately toxic levels are really high with an NH3/NH4 test, assuming that's the one you have. Go on, check it now, you never know, it may have come down a little.